Heather Pridemore: guest is Sare Gerin, who also goes by Sully, a self described human behavior nerd, a storyteller and humorist, educator and coach deeply interested in the ways we heal, connect and transform.

They're the founder of Late Bloomer Coaching, where they work with individuals and teams using somatic based practices to help create bridges toward connection, communication, and alignment. A firm believer in the transformational power of connection, Sare strives to co create spaces where creativity and belonging thrive, empowering people to be their authentic selves.

Welcome to the show, Sare.

S. Gerin: Yeah. Thank you. Good to be here.

Heather Pridemore: So I think it's cool Sare, because I have met so many interesting folks on LinkedIn. I listeners of the show know that I bring this up all of the time because I will go into these different groups or I'll, I'll get involved in these different conversations. I'll connect with someone really cool and interesting.

And that's actually how you and I met. We met just, uh, on LinkedIn. We, we live in different States. We've never met in person. Our only like connection to one another is the internet. So, uh, I just think that's really cool.

S. Gerin: Yeah. I mean, it's the, the modern world, right? I agree. I mean, it's one of those, uh, lovely LinkedIn moments. So I really appreciate just the ability to like be here and get to know you and all of that. So.

Heather Pridemore: Well, and I think. That's cool too, because that's really why we're having this conversation today. So you, you and I met a while ago and then I, you, we connected on LinkedIn. We started kind of following each other and periodically commenting or liking each other's posts. And you made a post and I was just like, Oh my gosh, I have to invite Sare to come on the podcast.

And so. You, you made this LinkedIn post and you were discussing two contrasting experiences with the intention of highlighting the impact of societal attitudes and structural limitations on personal growth and authenticity. And so in the first experience, it involved an individual who was discussing their challenges with using preferred pronouns at work, and they had encountered some resistance and were even warned by HR that it might negatively affect their career. And then this second scenario was about someone who was like celebrating their achievements and like the boundless potential for success, really emphasizing that.

Self limiting beliefs should be overcome and that happiness and peace are vital for growth. And so you connected these two stories to illustrate how societal norms and prejudices can make achieving such positive states like in the second experience, more challenging for those with non traditional identities.

You were stressing the importance of community and recognition and fostering a sense of belonging and authenticity, which you said also in your bio. And you closed that post by saying, Even though it's always worth it, the energy it can take to cultivate these things for ourselves is a journey in itself, sometimes at the delay of other successes.

And I was just like, wow, okay, that's what we've got to talk about. So Sare, can you speak to the energy that it can take to embody lived authenticity for folks with different experiences or identities that don't experience the same traditional supports and celebrations?

S. Gerin: Yeah, no, I'm, I'm glad that, first of all, thanks for your engagement on LinkedIn. Right. Um, and I, I appreciate you highlighting the post and kind of seeing the, the importance of the juxtaposition. It was one of those moments where, I mean, you know, we scroll, we can like mindlessly scroll on like any platform. And this was one of those back to back posts that just sort of really struck me. The whole point of each of those stories is living in authenticity. It's living truthfully and congruent with oneself. And the second story that you're highlighting is that person is almost experiencing the, the fruits of their labor, so to speak, like the, the outcomes that we can experience when we're actually living in alignment. And then the first person was trying to do that and hitting a lot of walls and You know, prejudice and all of these things that happen when you have kind of marginalized identity.

So it was just one of those things where I'm like, yes, and this is the whole point. And why can't we have that second story, even though we're living in the first circumstance and that's kind of what we all want. 

 I can speak for myself, I think, you know, and I, I tend to try and only speak for myself, but I think it really broadly applies. And a lot of what I think about in this context is kind of the, the queer person's journey, but certainly that's not the only application.

It's any person who is trying to kind of go back to what it means to be myself. What are the stories and the beliefs and the qualities that I hold that are true to me? And that requires a shedding of all of those other things, right? And that in and of itself is a lot of energy, especially if we're living in a world that asks so much of us, you know, what does success mean? What does my family expect? What do my friends expect? What are the beliefs that I grew up, um, internalizing? And if those aren't congruent with like the truth of ourselves, it takes a lot of energy. It takes a lot of bravery. It takes a lot of unlearning, takes a lot of loss and grief. And that in and of itself is a process that can kind of come at the expense or the delay of those sort of conventional successes.

So that could look like a work outcome. It could look like a title. It could look like, any kind of conventional milestone. So I think, you know, that comment that I, or that line that you're speaking to, from that post is really just naming the fact that any kind of identity negotiation is work, right?

And it's a process and it requires a lot of us, internally and externally. So going back to like the authenticity piece. It lives in the middle somewhere, that sweet spot of like, what is true for us and how does that show up in our day to day? What we, maybe what we do for work, but maybe how we're, living our lives.

 Even like I was listening to a podcast the other day, talking about authenticity in the framework of just like people pleasing, you know, say a friend, uh, asks you to you know, go out or something and you just, your beat from the day or whatever. And instead of being like, yeah, sure. You're just going to say, no, I'm not up for it.

Right. And that's, that's the truth of like how you're feeling versus I want to, you know, not upset somebody. I want to be nice. Like those little moments also reflect that. And it does take energy because everything that we're learning about how to show up in the world is telling us, you know, the opposite of how we are maybe choosing to behave.

So that's kind of what I mean by the energy that it can take. And certainly for me, so much of my experience. I kind of joke actually that being an adult is unlearning all of the things from childhood. Um, like the middle, you know, there's the beginning part where you're just yourself. Like as kids, if you ever watch kids, they're just doing their thing.

Like I actually, I have nieces and nephews and, you know, friends that have kids and I love, um, hanging out with kids because I can see like sort of that, like truth happening, you know, if you've ever seen kids just go up to each other, say hi and start like playing, it's the easiest thing in the world and it happens without any kind of weird judgment or like, should I, shouldn't I, what does this mean? Right. And so there's this middle, middle ground where we start to, to, to. Try to understand ourselves in the context of the world, in the context of our parents or friends, whatever in the context of like what we should be doing and that voice becomes our voice, but perhaps it isn't what we started out with.

So, a lot of the work that I've done personally, and the work that I do with other people is just trying to get back to kind of the heart of, of ourselves, if that makes sense, that was a long winded answer, but.

Heather Pridemore: No, no, it's good. Um, Sare, I want to talk a little bit about like identity negotiation and like, you know, you, you sort of preface, like you're coming at it more from like, um, an LGBTQ perspective, but I mean, as a woman, I also recognize identity negotiation, especially in like male dominated environments and, um, some of the things that we do.

And so I'm just curious, like both from your personal experience and the work that you've done, how do you kind of see that like playing out for people? And, and do you have any, I don't know, recommendations for people who are trying to, you know, get back to that, that center area that you talked about, that like authenticity.

S. Gerin: Yeah, I think, I think it happens in and out of the workplace. I think when we, you know, use the context of, you know, being in a woman, being a woman in perhaps like male dominated spaces or, or even just what that means. Right. And by that, I guess, I mean, what is imposed on that, um, on that identity. So I think talking about this in the workplace is, is very nuanced.

It's kind of my favorite thing because it can be so complicated because the ways that we make it complicated and the systems that we live in and all of that. So I think it happens. In both contexts. And I know a lot of what you talk about is sort of the intersection between the personal and like the work and I agree with that. I guess I see it as sometimes it's the same circle, right? Sometimes it's a Venn diagram and the way that we often approach these conversations or these identities is to have them as separate circles. And I, I think that is just not true, to be honest. 

Heather Pridemore: So when we talk about things like shifting habits, shifting behaviors, all these things, so there's kind of five systems working in tandem. So you have actions, right? Which we talk about like habit change. We have behavior, which is really just to create an emotional shift, right? Let's say, I want to start running, which I would, I would personally never do, but it's a thing that people do. Right. I want to start running, maybe that's ultimately to be a healthier person, right?

S. Gerin: So there's the identity piece. That's like really underscoring that behavior, that action. But in the small moments, right? Like I'm going for a run that is in service of that identity shift, which may or may not be there for people, but for the sake of this argument. But if I'm saying a singular, I'm going on a singular run, that's going to create an emotional shift and that eventually those actions, if we stick with it, it's all in service of that identity shift. So I think that one of the, the limitations of sort of how we approach this is we become very fixated on the actions and the behaviors when really what we need to be focusing more on is the identity shifting piece of it and the identity negotiation piece of it. And so, In the case of like my experience and sort of the specifically the identity negotiation pieces of it, there's a lot of, uh, stories that go along with that.

So I can give you an example, something that is a little pertinent to like my own journey. So for instance, uh, let's say I identify leadership with certain qualities, like to be a leader means to be. I'm going to be a little hyperbolic here, right? But it's to be, assertive. It's to have to be very decisive to not be very empathetic.

It's to take up a lot of space. It's to speak and not listen. Right. It's sort of like, we're, we're seeing an undoing of like how we're thinking about leadership, right. With like these conversations around emotional intelligence and all of that. Right. So if I'm seeing, You know, leader equals these things.

And then internally, I'm also saying to myself, I am a sensitive person. I'm an emotional person. I'm a queer person and I don't see leadership modeling those identities. There is a divide in what's happening between my identity and what I'm seeing modeled for me. So I'm already experiencing identity negotiations of what it means to be. You know, a person with those qualities in the workplace or a queer person in the workplace where maybe I'm the only person historically or something like that, right? So that's its own kind of experience happening, but I'm also superimposing that identity onto what it means to step into, in this example, leadership. And because there's a division between what I'm experiencing, i. e. what my truth is and what the quote truth of, you know, that experience, that identity is there's, an incongruence there. And so for me to be able to step into leadership in this example, or to maybe be more visible, to take on more things, to have more impact, I need to start to create a bridge between what I'm experiencing, what is true for me now. And what I'm seeing as, you know, the truth of this example, right? So we're all, I think we're all doing identity negotiations all the time. But I think one of the issues with, you know, quote, living authentically is that we're listening to the wrong things perhaps, or we're not listening to the things that are true for us that are maybe buried underneath all of these stories and these identities that we've imposed on ourselves. And instead of, we need to start kind of wrestling with, with what those are and what those mean and how they show up and start to ask ourselves, like, what is actually the truth of, of those experiences or those identities or those labels, where we, we like the labels, right? We like the boxes and we want to understand ourselves.

We want to understand each other. And there's a, there's a need for that, right? Like it's in service of something. However, that's also, it gets us in trouble and can create a lot of rigidity when we're trying to, to do these like new negotiations. Like it's a very messy process. Uh, it's very sludgy. It's very uncertain.

It's very nebulous. And because we crave certainty, it's easy to kind of stay in what's known and what's familiar versus stepping into what's unknown, what's confusing, and then kind of like create the new thing for ourselves.

Heather Pridemore: When you were talking about identity negotiation, you mentioned a couple of times identity shifts, and this was actually something that you and I've talked about before. And I find it really an interesting concept because when you and I were talking about it, you mentioned to me that identity shifts

can also be tied to functional shifts and you know, that's not just workplace related, right? I think about, for example, when I became a mom, that in a lot of ways was a functional shift that also impacted my identity. And so, I just would like you to speak a little bit more about how you see these concepts of identity shifts interacting and like personal and professional contexts, how, how you see them playing out.

S. Gerin: Yeah. I mean, I think, I mean, that's a great example. When I work with folks who have, who do become moms, right. That's, that's something that comes up a lot, like the the grieving of, of a former identity and in many ways, right. Like, I don't know if that's how you might experience that or, or can relate at all, but, I think anytime there's a shift, um, there is. It's not necessarily a loss, right? But, but there's, you have to let go of something in order to become something new and that's not an easy thing to do. Right. And that's why so many of us can stay stuck in this like middle ground of like, I want to change something. Could be habit, could be how we see ourselves.

Self concept is the key to this whole conversation. But maybe I don't believe it yet. Which a key part of that. Maybe I have other people telling me x, y, z thing about whether or not it's possible or it's true or whatever. Maybe that people are questioning my choices, whatever the case may be.

There's some, there's something that gets in the way in that middle ground between the like, I'm leaving this old place to, I'm creating something new for myself. And that's where a lot of this, to go back to your earlier question, your earlier point, that's where a lot of this negotiation and like the work, so to speak is right.

So, I think the identity shifting. So everything we talk, when we talk about the internal world and we talk about the external world, so I'm getting a little bit more on like the, the spiritual work, you know, that I might do with individuals and when we're talking about, you know, doing the inner work and all these things.

 So, so bear with me there. The external world people, people always talk about this is a reflection of the internal space. And so, they're happening kind of in tandem, but unless you have that identity shift internally, the functional shifts or the external shifts might not always stay, or they might feel incongruent.

 So one of, one of the things I think about all the time is this notion of like fake it till you make it, or the stat, the, the phrase fake it till you make it, I feel like I'm always sort of, I get pushed back on this all the time, but I hate this phrase because it feels, and it works for people. Like I don't knock that I don't deny that.

And that's great. Like I am in full support of that if it works for you, but I just don't buy it. I think that what, what is actually happening for people is almost like an identity connection. Because I think in order to have a true, like lasting shift, we have to believe. Whatever is happening. So let me, let me give you an example of what I mean.

So back in like 2015, I want to say, I was working, in my first higher ed job, I was managing a tutoring program for the university I was working at. Prior to this role, I had been in leadership positions, you could say, right. I was somebody who was in charge of things and manage teams, manage projects, but you know, in my youth, I wasn't thinking about it concretely. I wasn't giving it that label. I wasn't giving it that sort of, framing. I was just kind of doing things and to an extent, I still kind of operate that way. I follow the curiosity and I'm working on how to like create structure around that, and that's a separate thread, but, I had been in these, these positions.

Right. But. Because I was, you know, in college or like in my early twenties, I wasn't thinking about it as like, Oh, I'm a leader or I'm whatever the title is. And so in my first job, right, I started to really see like, Oh, okay. I'm the director of something. I'm managing X, Y, Z thing. There's a cause and there's an effect and there's an outcome.

And this is how we think about these things. And this is how we structure these things. So that in and of itself was a functional shift and it tied to like an identity shift. Right. So, so I was doing that for a while and kind of like working through how I was thinking of my own self concept and my own understanding of like these labels and how they actually felt.

Right. And then 2016, and this was all kind of behind the scenes work. I was somebody who like really didn't take the stage, identified as an introvert, you know, like all of these things. And I remember when a colleague of mine came up to me, she works in the admissions department and she was like, Hey, we have an opening.

You should apply for the admissions counselor role. And I kid you not my first thought when she said this to me, I don't know if I said it back to her, if it was just in my head, but I, I think my first thought was something like, Oh, those are the kinds of jobs for extroverts that people like right away.

You know, like that's an extrovert job. That's for somebody who's like showy. And it's, that's not me. Right. So I had to, I had to wrestle with that. And eventually I came to the conclusion that I was like, okay, I'm going to apply for it. And to this day, that was one of my my best jobs in the sense that it was aligned. I had a lot of growth. And I had a lot of my own identity shifts there that led to a functional shift. So what I mean by that is I started that job thinking. Oh, I'm an I'm an introvert. I don't like to public speak, for instance. I don't like to do that. Thinking about that now is hilarious to me because I love talking.

I love being on, on stage, so to speak. And I, I really enjoy being in a role or a space that's visible. I love connecting people. I love understanding people, both in the, the one on one and like the small spaces, which is kind of where I had been living prior to that. And kind of as somebody who's known who, is seen in a different way. So I went into that, that role thinking something about myself and having to like step into a new role. And I had to do it. I had to do the thing first. And while I was like actually doing my job, right. I had to start to see myself differently and I did by doing, so it was a little bit of this, like, you know, actions came first, but I had to be able to start to see myself as somebody who was, you know, extroverted who was able to be like seen and like hold space and do these hundred plus talks and you know, all of these things. So that's, that was my first example of really starting to create that bridge, if that makes sense, between the identity shifting and the functional shifting, if we, if we grow up our whole lives being told we're shy, you know, you're a shy person, you're an introvert.

Like, of course, you're going to behave that way. So until you start to see yourself a little bit differently, You can't necessarily like create that functional shift in how you show up, how you behave, the choices that you make, the jobs that you choose. You know what I mean? So that's what I mean when I say identity shifting and functional shifting, go hand in hand. And to really make it, I think, stick and feel aligned and congruent, we have to have that connection to the identity piece. Does that make

Heather Pridemore: It makes 100 percent sense. The one thing I was thinking about, Sare, is that, you know, you were saying that like, you kind of detest the like, fake it till you make it. And I kind of see in a way, there's sort of two formats of fake it till you make it. There's the version where you literally are just faking it.

 And to me, I like, I feel like that can lead to a lot of problems because if you're truly faking it, you're, you're completely out of alignment, alignment with your values, with your, like your authenticity. And that will only, you can't sustain that like healthily for very long, but there's sort of another take on fake it till you make it.

And to me, it's more about, there's this other saying, we're just going to stick to sayings. What got you here won't get you there. And so sometimes I think we have to think about a version of ourselves. That maybe is an identity shift or a functional shift and think about, okay, how do I take what I have now and like shift it right to the thing I need in order to get to that next place, that next level, that next, you know, whatever.

Um, because sometimes there is that limit. Like limitation of like, I only stick to the things that I know, then I, I won't have the ability to experience new things. And like you, even you called out the fact that you follow the curiosity. But if I, let's just say I played it safe my whole life and I didn't follow the curiosity, I might need to follow the curiosity to get to whatever the next, like, like exploration or stretch or, you know, whatever is.

And so, just something I was sort of, thinking about while you were talking was the sort of concept of like, what got me here, won't get me there. So.

S. Gerin: Yeah, no, and I, I appreciate the, the call out and I think what you're talking about is different. I think that's different from fake it till you make it. And that's kind of the whole point. So I appreciate that phrase. I don't actually hear that phrase as often. So I kind of, I kind of forget about it. But yeah, that's exactly what we're talking about is like, what do I need to change about my beliefs? The stories I tell myself, my nervous system, right? The way that I respond, do I feel safe? So I talk a lot about, and I think you're, you're speaking to this too. Honestly, I talk a lot about titrating. Meaning we're doing small steps and showing ourselves that it's safe. So, in somatic work, and I know this is a little bit of a different topic of conversation, but in somatic work, the body doesn't understand like the mind, the, there are two different languages, right? And so we always say we have to show and not tell. So yes, we're, we're, we're doing some of the storytelling and the belief stuff, which is, you know, language in the mind. But when we do the thing, and that could be like, you know, I'm trying to think of an example. I'll go back to my admission story. Doing a, a public speaking engagement with a hundred people, I do the thing, maybe I feel really weird about it and it doesn't feel like something I would ever do. And then after I'm done, I acknowledge that I did it, I regulate, and then I do it again and I do it again, and I do it again. And it starts to feel like, oh yeah, this is me. This is something that I'm good at, or something I enjoy, or whatever. whatever that need is. And that's, I think that's so different from fake it till you make it.

I really do. It's a little nuanced and I think for some people, maybe that phrase means that to them and that's great. But I think those are just two different, approaches and an important distinction.

Heather Pridemore: Let me bring up a different sort of take on this cause I, I do think that, well, I think the nuance is so important. So, I mean, I think that's where people are going to find the thing that like resonates with them or, or where they can like kind of tap in or identify. And so, you know, when I launched my first business last year, I met with someone who I knew was a serial entrepreneur.

And I said, look, I've decided to do this like crazy thing. And I just want to know as a serial entrepreneur, like what would you advise me? And he said to me, he said, appear bigger than you are. Which is sort of a form of fake it till you make it right like it's a take on that, but I needed to interpret like what that meant for me like what does appear bigger than you are mean, and it, and for me it wasn't about like pretending to be something it was like in the future

how do I see these businesses and like, what kind of things, what kind of social signaling do I want for myself and my business that's going to tell people that I'm legitimate, that I, that I can run a business, that, you know, I'm a smart person, like all these things that I wanted to communicate to the world.

And so what's interesting is actually the podcast was part of the plan when I launched it to say, like, look, I own a business. I have a podcast. You can come and hear me talk about things that I would talk to you one on one about if you came and participated in my coaching. So you can get a feel for who I am and, and also learn from other people's stories because stories are so important.

Right. And so it's, it's a slightly different take, but I want to share it because I do think it's nuanced and it can kind of, I mean, I could have been crazy and been like, Oh, appear bigger than I am. And I could have just, I don't know, like. I, I don't even know what I would have done, whatever it would have been, would have been completely like outside of like my scope of sanity.

Um, but, but I mean, like, I could have run with that in a totally different direction, but I took it and I was like, okay, appear bigger than you are, like, what does that mean? And we see this a lot. I mean, we see it with like, I mean, I feel like everyone's written a book these days. I would love to write a book someday too.

So no judgment, but like, but like a lot of people write books these days. It's like a way of saying like, look, I'm a subject matter expert. You know, it's, it's a social signaling of some sort. So I don't know. I just wanted to like, I guess add another layer to our, our stack of, uh,

S. Gerin: Yeah. I mean, I think, I think, yes, you're still doing that. Like, I, I really love that example and sort of the way that you, you, know, outline your approach because I still think you're creating the bridge. It's like, if I, okay, so let me give you a, an example, not related to my life. So there's this book, psycho cybernetics by Maxwell Maltz. And he's somebody who like talks about this, like, the external will feel incongruent unless the internal landscape shifts in some way. And, he was a, what do you call it? A plastic surgeon and, you know, did the thing, you know, whatever, like people were transformed in the way that they looked. And so he was noticing that, people would have these external shifts, like quite literally, and, would still feel. Bad. Right. And, and, and this is something that I think we see a lot in any of the, like, wellness space or like weight loss or whatever. And I don't want to like create that conversation too much, but, it's a classic thing, right? Like, you know, we hear of, of, People having a shift in like a physical, the way that they physically look, but still feeling like badly about themselves.

And so he, he started noticing these things and then eventually became a psychologist because, for folks that didn't have a shift in their self concept, there was still this, this, unease or unhappiness about themselves, even though their physical appearance changed. So it's the same, it's literally the same phenomenon, only like. In a different way. And so unless you, you create that bridge, there's going to be that, that disconnect there. So I think what you're, what you're saying is exactly like you had that negotiation, that understanding of like, okay, I need to do this. I need to be bigger. And I need to present a certain way and like, what does that mean for me as I am now? And it's really about like creating the belief that we can get there. So it's not necessarily being like, okay, I am X, Y, Z thing. And this is how I'm going to show up. If we don't like, if we don't believe that that's true, it's almost like a. An outrunning of the self, or like there's resistance to it. So I think what you're describing is that negotiation piece that's necessary to like, kinda like, you know, step forward to the, the new way of being or whatever the case may be.

So I think yeah, the, the example that you gave is exactly what we're talking about. So, very cool.

Heather Pridemore: I've, I've actually experienced what you were just talking about. So, a few, a couple of years ago. So I've had this health issue for a number of years that impacts my leg. I get these, like, um, my muscles all seize up and I'm in a lot of pain and, I've seen, Specialists and all this stuff. And no one was really able to, to help me.

So I went and saw the surgeon. I, that was, I was like, okay, let's just go talk to a surgeon. And this first surgeon I talked to, he said, oh, well, if you just lose some weight, you'll be better. Like, you'll just be better if you lose some weight. And, so, , I went to my doctor and I said, I'm in pain all of the time.

How am I supposed to lose weight through exercise if I can't exercise? And admittedly, this was before the whole world was taking Ozempic, but they were like, Hey, we're going to put you on this, this injection called Ozempic. And you'll just do this until you hit the weight goal. And we'll see if that fixes your problem.

And candidly, I actually didn't think losing weight was going to fix the problem, but I did want to eliminate it from the list of potential like health related issues. So I went on the Ozempic, I lost the weight. It did not fix my, um, my leg issue. But what was interesting is what you're saying. So like everyone kept telling me, oh, you look so great.

Like everything is awesome. Like, you know, I don't know, like I was getting all this praise, but I wasn't connecting with any of it because a like, It was like a medically induced weight loss. I was sick all the time. So, people don't talk enough about the side effects of Ozempic, but I was probably eating like 500 calories a day.

 And so, but like for me too, because the, the Ozempic was supposed to help me figure out if I could fix my leg issue, I wasn't doing it necessarily just for the weight loss. I was trying to fix this like health issue. And so I was in this really, like I was at this weird intersection because I was feeling very burnt out in my job, and then I was on this medically induced like diet that was causing me to eat very little.

So let's be honest, that's not great for the like mind or body spirit.

And then I was also feeling really, I don't know, like, upset, maybe not the right term, but like I was feeling upset because like I just wanted my leg to be better. I just wanted to have some quality of life back. And this, the solution that the surgeon was like, Oh, well, if you just lose some weight, you're magically going to be better.

That didn't, that was not the magic wand it was supposed to be. And so I actually, in a lot of ways was worse off after the weight loss than I was prior to it because it had further diminished, like my mental health and like, I didn't have that bridge between like my physical health, which is like what I was trying to solve for.

So, I mean, I, I really do resonate with what you're saying, Sare, because I, like, I, my external was changing, but in a lot of ways, actually my internal was getting worse. Like it was not like, it was not moving in the right direction. They were not. They were not in congruence with one another. And so I, I, you know, I was very happy to go off of the Ozempic and, uh, you know, not something I'll be, uh, doing again.

S. Gerin: Yeah. Yeah. Man. What a, what a wild ride ozempic is, yeah, no, I, I hear you. I have had my own journey and that in, in, you know, similar ways, you know, I, I'm a person with disabilities, which is, you know, going back to the identity negotiation piece. It's a constant thing. So I think, you know, what you're speaking to is like when we have a physical pain, right?

Like that's, that's so hard. Like that's its own kind of thing, I think. And it creates a lot. There's a lot of layers, I think, to that, but. You know, for me showing up in the world as a person who's disabled and has chronic illness, and I'm always having to almost forecast, like, am I going to be able to do this?

 Or I have so many things I want to do, but my body creates a lot of limitations a lot of times. 

It's just kind of like, Nope, you're done for the day. It can create a lot of the stories that I've had to live with and have had to consistently untangle. It's like a constant learning, unlearning and like recreating. That's the whole game. But what can happen is, you know, it, it projects into different things, you know, like, oh, I, I can't be successful if I'm a person with disabilities.

I can't do this. Like, how am I supposed to like, and it, it, it ties to like ableism and capitalism too. Right? Like, If I can't be productive, how can I do X, Y, Z? So, um, for me, that's been a real big piece of my journey is like, how do I, reconcile like what I know to be true about myself and my capabilities and my strengths and this and that, and like the reality of how I live and how I show up and what my needs are. And I think, you know, part of my journey has been. You know, sort of the radical act of like choosing rest and like, listening to my body, you know, which is kind of what you were talking about with your story with the doctor and the doctor's like, Hey, no, this is your problem. Here you go. And you're like, but actually maybe it's not my problem.

And then, so right there, you're talking about this inner knowing. It's like, Oh no, I don't think that's the issue, but sure. Like, let's try it. So I think like, The, the medical journey, uh, is a real strong example of how, we're gas lit a lot of times, or like, maybe we're not experts in a field, but we're experts in our body. And because we're, we're told, no, that's not true. Or like, oh, this is your problem. And you're like, eh, I don't know about that, but we don't listen to the wisdom of our bodies. We listen to like, what we're told is true. And then we do that over and over and over and over again. And. It kind of eats away at like our ability to hear ourselves.

I think that's been my experience at least. So I don't really know what my point is other than to say, I think, you know, it's all, it's all related and it all goes back to, the ability to hear ourselves, I guess, you know, to be like really reductive. But I think for me, you know, having multiple identities that can sometimes be really contrary to like the norm in society.

It creates, um, it can be, it can be very loud, you know, and it creates a lot of need to be true to myself and to be like firm in, and this is how I am. And this is like, it's okay. Right. So there's a lot of, a lot of that happening all the time and being able to show up as myself and then be received as myself, like that's another really big piece of it is like, we are humans, right?

Where, we're social, we're social beings. You know, what we feel in relationships and like social experiences, like matters. The essential reason that we connect to people is because we're creatures of meaning. So I'm, if I'm showing up to a thing and I'm saying this is so to go back to your example of like, when you were leveling up or starting your business. And starting the podcast and like, you need to be bigger than you are. If you're received one way, let's say people are like, Oh yeah, like you really know what you're talking about. Like, yes. Right. You're getting that quote, positive external validation. That's going to reinforce the self concept that you're trying to create. If you are received, you know, poorly, so let's say your engagement isn't there or, you know, listeners are, you know, whatever the case may be in the, the, the external, piece of it is quote negative and it isn't reinforcing the result that you want, if we don't have the identity piece of it happening in tandem, it will shatter our self concept.

And that's why it can take longer to achieve results because we'll be like, oh, I can't actually do this. What was I thinking? Like, I can't be this. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. So in order to strengthen that process of like where we're going and like how we want to get there, we really need to reinforce it through some of that like inner work.

And I guess that's kind of the differentiating factor because yes, we need external validation. We need, we're all mirrors to each other. We need the reinforcement. We need the encouragement. We need the like confirmation, right? Like, Oh yes, I'm doing the right thing. A lot of times that's an internal knowing.

Like I feel energized. I feel good. I feel like myself, you know, sometimes it's these really like intangible things. So we need those inner, inner knowings to happen, but we also want to see the external, right? That's why social media is so, uh, embedded and like addictive, right? Like we, we need to see that happening on the external, but we also need to be creating it internally for ourselves.

Heather Pridemore: I'll just add one more sort of anecdotal note to all of that is that it's interesting too, because when I launched the podcast, it was for very practical reasons. But as you were talking about, like internal knowing the podcast has actually become like a pretty important aspect of, of like my brand. Right.

And like of my identity and, you know, a part of what I'm building for my future. And so it is interesting. Cause like, if you had asked me prior to that, if I'd ever have a podcast, The idea had never crossed my mind. And now that I do it, like I sort of can't imagine not doing it. you know, I just love these conversations and these conversations and dialogues that we're having are so, in alignment with my values and like who I am as a person in the daily life, right?

Like, like the the version of me that you see on the show is the same version you would experience if we sat down and had a cup of coffee, you know, so it's, it's really interesting how those things could happen because it's not something I would have sought out under different circumstances.

And yeah, I'm really glad that it sort of happened. 

 So it's, it's, it's actually a really nice segue, Sare, because I want to talk a little bit about personal brand, a term that you shared with me, co-opted authenticity and, and curation and curation is something I've talked about before on this show as well.

And so this is all about how we show up in the world. And I want to know from your perspective. What strategies do you recommend for someone who's like looking to maintain their personal brands authenticity, while also navigating the demands of conventional settings. So basically a lot, basically pulling together everything we've talked about, right?

Like the, the intersection of like these settings, the, the identity navigation, the identity shifts, like how does it all come together? And like, and like, how do you recommend people navigate it?

S. Gerin: Oh, gosh. How much time do you have? Um, yeah, I think, oh, man. So this is something that I'm living in right now, is I'm you know, trying to do the thing, uh, have a brand be, uh, you know, have my own business, all of that. So it's very much on my mind. So part of me, part of me wants to say, if you figure it out, let me know.

So, so to first I'll start with, you know, you highlighted co opted authenticity and, curated authenticity and, I want to start there because I think there's this is a non judgmental like phrasing there's no there's nothing bad per se about doing this because we as much as we want to be authentic and I think that's really important.

 We're also, you know, we were born as these little like squishy things that needed protection. And, in the sort of somatic and trauma world, like Gabor Mate talks a lot about attachment versus authenticity. And we will always choose attachment, aka like our caregivers, keeping us alive and loving us, right, over authenticity. So this is what I mean when I say, like, we learned from a young age to sort of quiet ourselves. And then we start to collect the stories of what is going to give us recognition or love or acceptance or whatever. And then we can live our whole lives that way. And some people are content in that.

And that's cool. And some people aren't, and there's the people that I know, and that I've met who have this like thing, this like unknown thing, gnawing at them. A lot of times it's. It's just that I literally had a friend, a long time ago who went through medical school, went through residency and literally said to me out of the blue one day, like, I don't think I want to be a doctor.

I don't know why I've been doing this this whole time. I hate this. And how interesting is that? Right. And there was never the opportunity, the space, et cetera, given to them to really ask, like, what do I want from this? Why am I doing this? Does this feel aligned? Because a lot of what we do in the society that we live in is just go, go, go, go, go survive, do more, achieve more. We don't think about whether or not we want it. It's good for us. Until maybe we have illness until something big changes in our life. And then we're confronted and then we go on the hero's journey, right? Something shifts. But I will say, you know, there's a real, there's a realness to like having to be accepted and having to live in sort of that quote, and you can call it the normative space where it can be easier.

It can, it can give us the things that we need in a, in a different way. Right. So there's nothing bad about co opted or curated authenticity, but I do think It creates, it can create larger problems. I think I'm thinking about this from like a social media perspective or like the personal brand.

Right. So something that I'm struggling with all the time, uh, is okay. What is my voice? So, so even when I gave you my bio, right, I'm thinking about, okay, there's the me, there's the language I would use that might exist in more of my like personal coaching space. The spiritual spaces might accept it more, but is it accepted in the professional space? I don't know. So I'm always grappling with like these multiple sides of me, or like, I do really serious work, like with other people, with myself, whatever. You know, trauma work, somatic work, all of that stuff, coaching. But I'm also a comedian and I bring a lot of levity and like humor to everything. Uh, I think it's the spice of life, right? But sometimes those two identities don't feel like they can exist at the same time. And so we all have these versions of ourselves trying to exist at the same time, but they're existing in different contexts and whether or not they quote can exist in those contexts is like, I think what the work is, or like what that, challenge can be.

So I think when we think about a personal brand, it's like, it feels like the pinnacle of our existence, right? But it's also serving a purpose. So if we're starting a business, it's to get us clients. Maybe it's to be our authentic selves. Maybe like if, if you're an entrepreneur starting a business, I think, you know, for me personally, and from what I understand talking to other folks doing that work, it's because you couldn't really be yourself or there were aspects of, of your work or yourself or things you're really passionate about your values. You've spoken about that many times that couldn't exist in, you know, corporate spaces or whatever the case may be. So let me, uh, let me move towards that in a way that feels real and authentic to me. So I think it all kind of depends. I know for me, I want my brand to feel more like that. I want it to feel more like, these are the things I couldn't necessarily access in these spaces. So how can I, how can I create that? And how can I help other people do the same? One of the things that I think about all the time, and I would, I would argue it was one of those moments that was like, you know, game changer moments for me.

 And it was really simple and not work related at all, but it was just, I was with a friend who I consider to be, you know, one of those, I don't know if you have friends who are like this, but she's somebody who I kind of look to as a, or consider a model of like contentment and like, she, she's herself, you know, and so it's interesting that one day when we were hanging out. I don't know. I think we were like at a picnic or something random. We were just talking and she says, you know, something that I really love about you is you are yourself and it gives me permission to be myself. And I think about that all the time because to me, that's, that's what I'm here to do. That's what I bring to spaces. And I want to do more of that in any capacity that I can. And I think one of the challenges. In, you know, in work spaces is that we're, we're like fighting to do that, but we can't always do that. And so it creates a lot of discontent. It creates a lot of cognitive dissonance. So that's, that's how I think about my brand.

So I think it really is about, again, I keep using the word bridge, but creating that bridge. And I think a really important part of this conversation is, you know, on the flip side, I have friends telling me or like coaches or mentors or whoever telling me, you don't have to, you don't have to give them everything, you know, think about what you want to show them and show them that.

Right. So it's almost like getting really clear on what, what you stand for, what you're about. And then how does that show up in different contexts? Like, what do you want to bring to the table in this space versus this space? How does that show up in your brand and how can you be really agile in that?

And I think in order to do that, and this is where I am right now, to be quite honest, in order to do that, you have to have that strong foundation internally. In order to have the comfort and to feel really confident when you are like, not showing everything you're showing this one thing and that's okay.

Okay. And to be honest, like that's sort of the muck that I'm in now as being like, okay, where, how do I build that foundation? And like, how do I, how do I flex? Right. So, right.

Heather Pridemore: on my, you know, my values and the things that were sort of non negotiable for me. But once I got tight on them and felt really good about what they were, then it also created this sort of confidence because now there are situations where I'm just like, that's out of scope for me.

I'm just not in, you know, and there was a time where, because I guess I was coming really a lot more from a scarcity mindset and I'm not talking about financial scarcity. I'm just talking about scarcity in general, like not being included, not being able to grow, not being able to, to, to be all those sort of, conventional markers of success that I, I didn't, I didn't worry so much about my values.

I was like, well, I'm just supposed to do these things. Like this is the, this is the path and I'm supposed to go down it and I'm not supposed to question the process or, or, you know, I'm just supposed to go along for the ride. And, you know, and that was really, um, it got to a point where, I mean, I did it for a long time and it was fine.

And then all of a sudden one day it was not fine anymore, you know, and it, it, it just, it wasn't, it wasn't syncing. And so. Now it's such an interesting place to be, to have a higher level of clarity of myself so that when I am in a situation that doesn't feel congruent, I can say, you know what, this, this isn't for me, it might be for someone else and that's okay, but like, this isn't for me.

And, you know, not to take us on a tangent, but one of the groups I spend time with, we talk about the feminist economy and, that has really made me start thinking about like, Like, what does that mean for my business? What does that mean for my like livelihood? And, and, you know, and there have been times where, this is again, anecdotal, but like my husband and I co own my other business and, you know, he's coming from a very like finance world, very like black and white numbers, all those things.

And sometimes I'm just like, no, that's not in alignment with my values. Like we're going to do this thing and we have to figure out how to make it work. But like, Like I have already committed to running a business in a certain way. And that means, you know, investing in the things that I care about, like sort of like in, in spite of what capitalism tells me, for example, you can pay someone a good wage and still have a profitable business.

I believe that, you know, I don't have to, I don't have to pay people like bottom dollar just because I can. Right. I should pay them a fair wage because I want quality employees. I want happy employees. I want people who can, who can survive their, you know, like thrive in their lives. And at the same time, I can run a profitable business that does then mean I have to be maybe a little smarter in other areas, but it's, it's not, they're not incompatible.

And, and so that's my belief system is like the, the, you know, investing in things like continuous learning and paying people a good wage and, and all these things that like. Like our, our costs for a business, those are also aligned with my values. And so if I'm going to prioritize those, I may have to figure out solutions in other areas, but I don't think that, that they're like opposite of each other.

I think, I think it's, both and

S. Gerin: Totally agree with everything you just said. 

Heather Pridemore: I think what you're talking about, I mean, it is the both and right. And so much of the discontent, right. Is the compromises and like the, the, the, shrinking of one thing in favor of the other.

S. Gerin: And so you're talking about like, just being like, Nope, that's not how I run my business. And you figure it out. Right. And, and like, I, I live in the world of, you know, team engagement and creating cohesion and in a lot of ways, it's doing the work that we've just been talking about on an individual level and a team level. And a lot of the, and there's so many layers to this, right? Like you're talking about a big one, which is pay. And like you, you said, you just said you want happy employees. You want all these things. And pay is like huge, right? Obviously. But, Esther Perel talks about like the identity economy. And work has become this, like the basket that we put all of our eggs in.

Right. So that means that it has to give us the authentic piece. It has to give us the connection piece. We cannot really connect in the same way. I don't want to say it's not possible if we're not able to be ourselves. Right. But how can we be ourselves at work? When there's all of these other things at play, right?

Or like, I just, just facilitated some workshops where like, you know, if people are worried about losing their jobs, or they're worried about if they say something, there's going to be retaliation. How can you be yourself? You can't, right? Like, and that's where some of the, you know, the, the flexing that I talked about can come into play.

But in order to do that, we have to be really firm on like, what are we comfortable doing and what feels true for us and like having that, that solid foundation where it doesn't feel like we're betraying ourselves if we, you know, compromise in one area. So I'm thinking about like, I work at a coffee shop part time on like doing this whole, you know, being my own boss sort of thing.

And, it's funny to me that it's one of the. I'm going to write, I'm going to write a whole like article about all of the observations that I've seen, because in, in my opinion, this experience has been the corporate experience. However, it's, it's almost more honest about the things that we talk about, right?

Like, one of my favorite things about being a consultant is I can, I don't have to sugarcoat it. I don't have to, and obviously there's nuance and there's, You have to be able to speak the same language and all of that. But my job is to be in service of like your best interests, your staff's best interests, whatever the goals are.

Right. And if I'm like placating and being like palpable, this is, this is another thread. Sorry to like go all over the place. This is another thread that I think instead of authenticity, we're choosing palpability. What is the most digestible version of myself? And that feels really bad sometimes. Right.

And it creates a lot of unrest internally. So instead of choosing authenticity, we're choosing like, what's going to be acceptable. That's different. That's totally different. It's it gives me the ick as the kids would say, right? And I think, I think that's sometimes what we have to do. And, and that's like the, the very like heart of the challenge that we're talking about.

But anyway, so in, in this coffee shop environment, like it's been so fascinating because I'm experiencing what you just described, like, Yes, I'm a barista, right. And like, people can like turn their nose up at service work and all of that. But everything that I'm experiencing is the same thing I would experience in a corporate environment, but there's no like pretense, there's no buzzwords. It's just like the truth of what's happening. We are social people showing up together in a space with goals and work to do. And how do we navigate conflict? How do we navigate urgency? How do we navigate team dynamics and communication rifts and all of these things? People wanting to be seen by leadership.

Like, The hiring process, the compensation. I'm, I'm, fortunate enough. This is one of the only examples this is one of the few examples where I'm seeing like integrity lived. The words match the action. And it's been such an interesting experience for me after like multiple layoffs, multiple like, spaces that say one thing and do the other, even though we're also in the business of teaching people how to do the thing and say the thing, which creates talk about cognitive dissonance for me. So it's been just really interesting to see like business owners creating a space that is.

You know, built on integrity and built on values and like, yeah, there are certainly like problems. I'm not saying it's like a magical land, even though it is coffee. So it kind of is a magical land. But it's just been such a fascinating, like case study almost of like, what happens if we're able to really just strip down the nonsense. 

But this is sort of my, like, this is the hill I will die on in the leadership development space where like, I think if I can get to going back to personal brand, if I can get to a place where I have my solid foundation and I feel really strong in being that expert, which I am, but I'm, I'm, not here to give you the words with no meaning.

I'm not here to give you the talk without the action and like the embodiment. And I think that is such a problem that I see in the leadership development space. And yeah, working at the coffee shop has just like been such an interesting reflection of all of the things that I, we talk about in that space, but aren't always executed super well.

And yes, there's complications like a 5, 000 person company is different than like a team of 20. But the, the, the concepts and the foundations and like the things we're trying to achieve are the same. Just how are we approaching it? How are we like being mindful about it and like integrating it into the day to day.

Anyway, that was my tangent. It's something that I'm thinking about all the time. And it's just been so fascinating to like draw those parallels in a seemingly unrelated space, but like, it's really not because we're all just humans and we, we over, I feel like we overcomplicate so many of the things, that we talk about in kind of a leadership space.

 Not to minimize the challenges, but I, when I think about things from a human lens and like, I see, I see things from like a needs based perspective, it feels not easy. It's not easy. It's very challenging, but it's simplified. If that makes sense.

Heather Pridemore: I think size is really the difference. Like if you think 

about, if you think about so many startups that start out with like really great cultures and everything, and then as soon as they start to scale the, the culture diminishes, I, I don't know, like, I mean, I can't tell you exactly what the problem is, but I mean, I think that it's like, they start out with really strong values.

And as soon as they start to scale, the focus shifts to something else. And that's really why we see like sort of the erosion of that. What like, what made that company special in the first place? 

S. Gerin:: It's hard to maintain things as you scale for sure. It's an interesting challenge, like how to, how to, I guess, for lack of a better word, like operationalize things like belonging or like, you know, connection on a team and things like that. So I think that's part of why I really enjoy working on the smaller scale because it's like local politics versus larger politics, you know, like the impact is, is it can be much more felt. But I think you can start there and build out. But that's a whole separate conversation. But yes, I agree with you.

Heather Pridemore: Well, we are coming to the end of the show, Sare. And I like to wrap every episode by saying, if someone said this show was way too long, I did not listen. What is like one thing you'd want them to take away from our conversation?

S. Gerin:: I think it's to acknowledge that. the, the work that needs to happen with some of the shifts we're talking about, whether it's achievement or like how you see yourself changing, feeling better, whatever the case may be to acknowledge that the getting there part is going to feel pretty uncomfortable.

And if you're in that space, you're on the right track. So I think it's about holding the future state while you're doing the messy, you know, the messy walk to that future state. Right. And just really like acknowledging that. It's okay if you're in that place and like, holding both, you know, you said both, and. It's 100 percent of both, and. And change is possible. I really do believe that. And I think it, it takes, it's a lot of spinning plates. It's not just the one thing. And, I think that's really important to remember, especially when things can become very murky when you're like trying to figure it out as you go. 

Heather Pridemore: I love it. I love it, Sare. Thank Thank you so much for being on the show. This was such a great conversation. I enjoy every time we connect. And so, uh, I knew I had very high hopes for this episode and you did not disappoint. So thank you.

S. Gerin: of course. Thank you. I really appreciate it.