Heather Pridemore: For a decade, Deanne Gertner dedicated herself to the business of art. First, helping arts nonprofits run more efficiently, and then placing artists work in corporate and individual collections. After that, she created an experimental arts agency to make original art accessible regardless of a person's financial or educational standing. Now she's turned her focus to content marketing by day and her own artistic pursuits and visual and writing by night. She relies on three things to keep grounded: meditation, comedy, and Esther Perel. Welcome to the show, Deanne.

Deanne Gertner: Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Heather Pridemore: So I'm excited to have Deanne on the show. We've actually known each other since I moved to Colorado, which would've been around 2010. And Deanne and I met at an arts focused event. Later, were both part of this young professionals group called Culture Haus. But the night I met Deanne, she was actually already on the board of Culture Haus and was working one of their events.

And I had gone because I was new to town and I was looking to, I don't know, find my people. And so I went to this event and I found my people so, so excited you can be here, Deanne.

Deanne Gertner: Yeah, it was a crazy experience because I was working a silent auction table and just struck up a conversation with Heather and she asked for my information and I was like, well, I'll never see this girl again. She's probably just being nice. And then we started hanging out and really found we had a lot in common, both in the arts and then just in our personal and professional lives.

 I, have to say Culture Haus might not have endured, but we did. So I think, It's a really nice segue for our conversation to today, Deanne, because we met in an arts focused organization, and of course it was a young professional group for the art museum here in Denver. And you are doing a lot of, a lot of your projects are still in this, this art sphere, especially in public spaces, and you are finding unique ways of weaving art into the fabric of our everyday lives.

Heather Pridemore: Could you talk a little bit more for listeners about how you are conceptualizing these projects and what you believe the role of public art to be?

Deanne Gertner: I've worked for about a decade in the arts, so I started out in the nonprofit sector and really saw how there was this great opportunity for nonprofit sector and the business sector to join forces and the arts was a great way to do that. One of the things we did was this economic activity study and it really showcased just the economic value of the arts.

So it arts aren't just intrinsic value or aesthetic value, but also having like real things that they do in the world, such as boost the economy or, reduce crime or retain employees. So it has these tangible benefits to art as well. With the kinds of public art projects I've been doing since I've struck out on my own with, Hey Hue, they've been really to put art in places you wouldn't normally expect.

So take them outside of like the white box gallery setting or a museum setting and put them in to everyday life situations. It's been a mix of, sometimes I'll see an opportunity and reach out to like Denver Parks and Rec and see if we can put a sculpture at a public pool in the city that needed seating, and so the sculpture can double as seating.

Plus this way to create community and beautify the space. And then other times it's an entity that's maybe quasi-governmental, like the Civic Center Conservancy who manages the Civic Center Park downtown. And they have an idea like, we wanna activate this space with art, but we don't know what to do.

So then I'll help them create like, what could a vision be? Who might we wanna work with as an artist, or with the Downtown Denver Partnership with my friend Castle Searcy, we co-curate these projects for the Between Us alleyways project along the 16th Street Mall and then upper downtown area. So really putting art into alleyways because they are almost like the arteries of the city

 but at the same time, because they're so utilitarian, a lot of seedy things happen in those alleys, and so we can prove with data that when we put an artwork in an alleyway, the calls to the police department for that alleyway go down. Because suddenly all of these new people are coming into the alleyway that's more welcoming and exciting and, and any kind of nefarious activities that might have occurred in that alleyway stop happening. So it's really just a win-win situation a lot of the time. Like thinking about what's a new way to see and interact with this space and how can art be a conduit for that?

Heather Pridemore: Deanne, we, we jumped right in the deep end. Right? So we started right away with your, your public artwork. But what I'm curious is how did you get from, let's say, Culture Haus, right? Where you were

part of an arts organization to now being someone who is facilitating these art installations around the city.

Deanne Gertner: When I started on Culture Haus I was working at this arts nonprofit and I was doing like program management, so I had a little bit of experience there. Then joining Culture Haus as a board member really gave me more confidence, and it helped me kind of get outside my comfort zone, talk to these, you know, high end collectors, ask them, can we come visit you?

You know, and then it just kind of snowballed from there, of connecting with different people in the arts community, meeting different artists. And when I joined the art consulting firm that I was working at, that just kind of like exploded to the next level. So I was getting practice of placing art

in non-art settings. I had a lot of hotel experience, working with some law firms or healthcare. But it really wasn't until I kind of went out on my own that I started to do more of these public type settings because most of the time beforehand when I was working at the art consulting firm, it was indoor spaces that were privately owned.

While they might be publicly accessible like a hotel, it wasn't as like large scale as an outdoor public art piece. And so, joining forces with Castle and her work with the downtown Denver Partnership, I was able to like, stretch myself even further. And, starting with these alleyway projects, we then we did, the Civic Center Conservancy Project.

And then after that, one of our last projects we've done is in Commerce City. It's this freestanding 18 foot sculpture outside for the Greyhound Park Development. So it really was just kind of like a slow, organic progression of building my network over time, building my skillset, and then also building my confidence so that I could, take that next leap and really go into the public art sphere.

Heather Pridemore: So, Deanne, when you were talking about the trajectory of your career in the art space. One of the words that you kept saying was accessibility. And you talked about how even these works that were in private collections, like in a hotel, they were still able to be accessed by the public. And so it sounds like the accessibility is an important factor to you, especially now that you've moved into this very like public domain. Can you speak a little bit to the importance of like art accessibility, but also to like what you think the impact on the community is in those types of projects.

Deanne Gertner: Art traditionally has had this very strange bedfellows of like the very top of society and then the lower rungs of society. So the very top are these collectors and philanthropists, and then artists are not always at the top of the economic food chain. And so it kind of creates, if you are working in the arts or an artist, you get this accessibility to the upper echelons of, the different classes that you wouldn't normally get.

And so it actually creates these like amazing open doors. But the challenge is if you're not an artist or working in the arts, like you're not going to be able to access some of that. And so the other thing is that when we put art in museums or art centers or galleries, they can be very intimidating to everyday people who may not have an art history background or may not have studied in the studio arts.

And so there's this huge intimidation factor and it kind of has this like standoffishness that is may not be accurate to what artists are trying to do, or even what museum curators or nonprofit executive directors want to do, and so bringing art to people makes it less intimidating. When you put art in a space that's just where you're going every day,

something that might even be connotationally seen as, undesirable like an alleyway, you're reshifting, what people think about art and how it can be in the world. And thinking about art, not as this thing that happens in galleries, but something that can happen every day in your life.

I find a ton of value from art. I love how it gives me the opportunity to think about life differently, to see the world in new ways, to experience new cultures, new stories, and I think art is one of the most human things that we make. It is what separates us from other animals. The fact that we can make these creative pieces, whether it's a performance, a dance, a visual art piece, a book, and it really is like one of the best ways we have to understand each other. And so just trying to democratize that experience and make it open to anyone at any time in any place is something I'm really passionate about.

Heather Pridemore: Deanne, before we talk about the work that you're doing now. I, you know, I wanna point out too, that there was a period with Hey Hue, which. you, you kind of briefly mentioned, Hey Hue and so maybe you could talk a little bit more about what that is. But when you first launched, Hey Hue, it was a bit of like a, almost like a pop-up art gallery and you were representing a lot of different artists and you were keeping artwork in the gallery that was very affordably priced and making it very accessible.

And so, could you just talk a little bit more about the sort of origin story of, Hey Hue and then, you know, and that kind of connects us to where it's evolved to today?

Deanne Gertner: Yeah. So while I was working in the arts, I would come into contact with all of these amazing artworks and artists and, but I was on an art salary, so it was very limiting of what I could try and collect. I did collect a couple pieces, you know, they're very small or sometimes artists would gift me a piece.

And, I knew they had all of these smaller things that they would either make as like a maquette or sketches or artists were like, Jonathan Saize, were making these really small, like one inch paintings selling them for $20, and it was going like gangbusters. And so I thought why not bring that to a larger scale of artists and to the public?

And so I decided to curate, it was something like 65 different artists for this show and put them all, installed them in the back of a delivery box truck on South Broadway during the underground music showcase and just kind of let people crawl into the back of the truck shop around, because I knew that once people understood that art could be affordable at any price, they were, they were, works as low priced as $5 all the way up to $200. And so I really wanted to kind of disrupt this idea that only wealthy people can collect art. So that was where I was coming from with, with that, what ended up happening is that I went a little too ambitious probably with my goal of the quantity of artists, the quantity of artworks.

So it just became very physically difficult to be, doing these pop-up shows all the time. So I still, you know, would love to do that again, the pandemic kind of put the kibosh on that. I was still gaining some more momentum with that and then the pandemic occurred and so it really kind of stopped being able to have any kinds of those experiences, and that's when I made this pivot into public art.

Heather Pridemore: So I think Deanne, that carries us pretty much to where we are today, but you're working in a very different industry now. So you've transitioned into marketing, and you're specifically marketing in the area of healthcare. Marketing complex healthcare programs is going to involve some really complicated and complex topics. Could you share just a little bit about your work and how you're breaking down these intricate subjects to be effectively communicated to those who need this information the most? 

Deanne Gertner: I am primarily working in Medicare when it comes to the healthcare space, which is perhaps one of the most complex parts of healthcare because there's Medicare from the government, and then there's all of these different private insurance plans. And then on top of that, there are all these experimental models that are happening.

And so what ends up going on is that it's just like alphabet soup with all the different parts of Medicare. You're comparing apples to oranges all the time. And then let's just be honest, the healthcare system in general is like painfully complex and convoluted to navigate, especially when you are sick, you know?

And that's when you need care the most. And so one of the things that I try and do is simplify all of this complexity to make it accessible for whichever audience we're talking about. So I've done work for B2C, like consumer focused projects, and so that is trying to simplify what you need to look for in a Medicare Advantage plan and the kind of care like healthcare provider that

you would get with that plan. So just keeping it really simple and really understanding what the audience wants and needs. They don't care about our businesses. They care about their pain points and needs, and so what I try and do is kind of marry those two.

So if you imagine like the middle of a Venn diagram, what's in between what the consumer wants and needs and what the business is trying to do, and then create a message that will resonate with the audience. And so with that, it's really trying to, you know, cut away anything that is super convoluted or 

confusing and really give a clear through line of here's what would be great for you and here's why. We've done some work for healthcare providers as well, and so with them they have a different kind of purview. They're really more concerned about delivering the best quality of care they can. At the same time of creating a sustainable practice and keeping their individual practice, their healthcare system, their hospital system, financially solvent. And so we will adjust the kind of messaging that we speak to them.

And then the last audience we do a lot of work with is for Medicare insurance sales agents. And so they're obviously concerned about their bottom line, their cash flow, but at the end of the day, most of these people got into the business to help people navigate these really complex things. So giving them the tools and the resources and the strategies they need to do their job better.

And so it all just comes down to, I think, understanding what the audience needs, and then giving them the essential information in a simplified, easy to digest way, and then they can take it from there.

Heather Pridemore: When we were talking earlier about the period of your work history that was more focused on the arts. It was very much kind of this like slow burn evolution of a career trajectory. From the outside looking in, a pivot into Medicare marketing is kind of a hard like left or right. And so how did you get here, Deanne?

Like how did you end up doing this kind of work?

Deanne Gertner: I had lost a job at an art consulting firm, and then I had gotten a new job at a gallery, and then a year later that closed. And so I was 37 and I just kind of had this hard look at myself like this is not sustainable for the long term for me right now. I love the arts, but I don't think I need to work in the arts anymore.

I need to make a little bit more money so I can have more stability in my life. And then, you know, I knew I would always be part of the arts. I'm still doing projects on the side. I still have an art practice myself, with my creative writing and some of my visual arts that I do. And so I had this reckoning like, I don't have to make it my full identity.

I don't have to make it my full life or my you know, forever career. And so I really leaned into the writing aspect of my history. So I have a undergraduate degree in English literature, have an MFA in creative writing. And then wherever I worked, I was always the person doing anything that needed to be written.

So whether that was writing grants, doing social media, blog posts, writing emails, writing, updating website copy. So I had a lot of on the job experience with marketing, and so I knew I could make the leap, and the reason I was able to is because another person I met through Culture Haus, I contacted her, she was working in PR at the time, and I asked her like, does she know of anyone who needs a writer?

And she said, well, I do, but I don't think you're gonna like it. It's in Medicare. And I said, you know what? I'm open for anything right now. I just want to get that writing experience. So I applied and eventually got the job. It was a Christmas miracle that I got hired because I didn't have any previous, like hard and fast marketing experience.

 But I learned on the job and I think I have a very intuitive sense of marketing just from being a writer, being an artist, and really understanding people and having that empathy for them and then also, bringing that creativity to bear. So one thing I think is really interesting is being an outsider in an industry, you actually have an opportunity to bring these outside the box ideas.

 It's like you have a beginner's mind. That's what they say in Buddhism, you know, all the time. And so you can bring these really unusual ideas to the table that other people might not, be thinking about. And so I knew I could bring all of that to the table. Plus I'm a lifelong learner.

Anything that I need to learn about, I can get super deep into it. And so I can bring those skills to bear and it paid off. And now at the agency where I work, Heinrich here in Denver, I've become like a subject matter expert in Medicare Advantage in like ACO Reach, which is this different Medicare model because as you write about things, you actually learn it really well.

And in order to write about it, I have to teach it to myself first, so then I could teach it to someone else.

Heather Pridemore: I wanna kind of pull at a thread of something that you said, Deanne, because you were talking about the transition from your previous art world to the marketing and, and sort of Medicare world, as you said, a Christmas miracle and, I thought it was funny in the sense that I imagine there was probably quite a bit of transferable skills that you carried over from your past work history to this current position that you moved into. But later in the conversation you were talking about that sort of outsider perspective. And this is something, this is the thread I wanna pull out a little bit because, my background in some ways is similar, right? I worked for a long time sort of piecemealing together my life as I went through college and started my career and I accidentally landed in the automotive industry. And part of the power that I brought to that role in that early, that early position was this outsider perspective. And I did leverage a lot of the things that I'd learned in the nonprofit space. I leveraged a lot of things that I had learned as an artist and you know, it's really surprising sometimes the skills that end up being transferable and applicable and when you were referencing the more spiritual element of it. I really think about novelty and innovation. So I take more of it like a scientific mind to the, to the same concept. But we ultimately are getting at the same thing, that you shouldn't be afraid to do something new and to bring some new perspective to it, because it might just be the magic ingredient in the situation. And so I really just wanted to call that out. There's no question there. I just, you know, wanted to add my own like little bit of like, we should talk about this.

Deanne Gertner: Yeah, no, that's very well said. And I think people put arts and science as this like binary, but actually I think there are often one side of the same coin, and they really do go together because in marketing, for example, there's so much about data right now and leveraging data, but if you don't really understand people and what makes people tick, all the data in the world isn't gonna do much for you.

And in fact, now that everything is becoming so AI driven, like it's going to be a sea of sameness. There's not gonna be any differentiation. And so you need somebody who's like on the edge of creativity and innovation, really pushing things forward 

I, you know, I initially had planned to ask you, Deanne, about like what the connection was from, you know, your art background to the work that you're doing now, and you still are welcome to answer this. But I do just wanna point out that, you know, often people who have an art background or like a liberal arts education or a writing background, right? They kind of become the joke. Like, if you don't know what you wanna do or if you wanna be poor, you know, I don't know what other jokes they make, but like, basically if you want to not be successful in life, go and get a lib arts, writing or an arts education. But I can tell you, at least from my own experience, with the fine arts, studio arts, that you learn science, you learn math, you learn history, you learn writing.

Heather Pridemore: And let's be honest, if you're gonna make it as an artist, you better learn business. And so, I mean, like to me, an arts education is actually a very well-rounded education because you almost have to leave school like a Swiss Army Knife, you're like a master of so many different like elements and you know, you have a different educational background.

So I'm curious, do you feel the same about your own history?

Deanne Gertner: Absolutely, like artists need to, are basically an entrepreneurs, you know, they're having to be incredibly creative and scrappy, not just with their arts practice, but with the financial side of things. And, artists are some of the most resourceful people I know when it comes to their finances, very creative.

Often they'll have multiple income streams. I know artists who have invested in real estate and now they have that, you know, as a great resource. Other artists who have made a small product out of their work. Like I met an artist a month or two ago and he created his own proprietary glaze for ceramics, and now he's selling that to other artists.

So there's a million different ways that artists, you know, show up in these really interesting business-like ways in the world. For me personally, I think getting a liberal arts degree was one of the best choices I ever made because the thing about a liberal arts degree is it doesn't tell you what to think.

It teaches you how to think. And those critical skills are things that you could use in any industry, in any job you can possibly imagine. And so it's been one of the most beneficial things that I do, and I use it every day in my job because I, as a content strategist and a writer, I have to always be evaluating these sources, determining, is this one credible?

What are they trying to communicate? Is this valuable? How does it fit into the, my thesis that I wanna propose through this webinar or this ebook or this podcast? And so it really is practical skills you can put to use every day. And I, I'm a firm believer that nothing is ever wasted. Everything kind of comes back around and, you know, maybe something you did at 25 is gonna have resonance for you at 40.

 You never know where life is gonna lead you. It's a winding road. And, I do think there's a reason, you know, for all the skills you accumulate along the way.

Heather Pridemore: When you were talking about how to think versus what to think. I thought about, I've been doing some research lately on, teaching for artistic behavior, which is also very similar to the frameworks that are used in design thinking. And so this kind of carries us back to where you were saying earlier that art and science are really just two sides of the same coin. Because as you get into the nitty gritty of how an artist works, it's not so different than the way like Agile works in the tech space, or design thinking works in the innovation space, and so there's a reason all these things have something in common. And at the end of the day, most of the people who do really well in that type of thinking are the people who get paid the big bucks. You know, they're the Steve Jobs of the world. And so, you know, just, I guess throwing a little love to our artistic, you know, others out in the world because, you know, they, they have something important and they, they need to know that.

Deanne Gertner: Absolutely, and I think they might become more valued very soon because a lot of people lose their creativity. They don't foster it. And so the people who've maintained that, almost like childlike sense of play, they're actually gonna be teed up really well for the immediate and long-term future when we have all of this automation and AI disruption.

And I think artists and creative types are very well positioned moving forward.

Heather Pridemore: Now I wanna pivot a little bit here, Deanne, and I wanna talk a little bit kind of back to, you know, when we started at the top of this conversation, you were really talking about the work that I would sort of say was like your passion

and then you've pivoted to something that on the surface seems more pragmatic, but probably more relatable to your work history than maybe initially given credit to, you know, on purpose so we could have this dialogue. But I want you to talk a little bit about making a career shift like that, so from the arts to something more lucrative, and both the compromises and the gains. Because I think so often we're taught, you know, oh, you have to follow your passions to be happy in your career. And you know, I've talked to some other folks on this podcast where we've talked about letting yourself, your identities sort of get attached to work and, you know, some people think, oh, you should keep sort of a, a division, a little bit of compartmentalization and you, you know, kind of made a transition.

And so I'm really just wanting to understand how this shift has ultimately allowed you not only to continue to leverage your existing skills, but to allow you also to still feel fulfilled and challenged and sort of find that balance between your purpose and your passions. I know that was a lot of a question, but you know.

Deanne Gertner: We will get through it. Yeah. So working in the arts gave me a lot of psychic and spiritual value and reward. But like I said, the financial piece really took a toll and it started to take more of a toll the older I got, and so I wanted to find something that would be still creative, still interesting, but

I wasn't so passionate about it that I would forsake my entire identity and my wellbeing for. When I was working at the art consulting firm, I was so overly identified with my job. I stopped writing, I stopped doing any of my own creative work that wasn't related to my job. And so, I was really good at that.

I did really great, amazing projects, but it did take a toll in a lot of ways. And so once I lost that job, I really took a hard look at my life, and I realized how much I had overinvested in over identifying with that past job. And so I know, I knew I didn't wanna do that again. And I also wanted to set myself up for future financial stability.

And so I started thinking about different opportunities and avenues of how I could have a little bit of both. And so, marketing was something I had tried to get into, you know, when I first got out of college, when I was at the arts nonprofit and I always kind of had the door shut. And so I thought why not give it another try and go.

 Like I said earlier, I'm a lifelong learner so I can get really interested in lots of different topics. So what happens in Medicare, healthcare often trickles down to the rest of the system and everyone else in the healthcare system. So I actually think it's a really important thing to know about and learn about.

And I could make that personal for myself and my health, but also for my mom and my grandparents. And so I'm, I found a way to make it interesting to me, even if it might not have been quote unquote interesting on the surface. And then obviously I'm in a much more financially secure position now in this role that I have, and it afforded me to go to Europe for the first time last year for my 40th birthday, which is something I'd always wanted to do.

I also try to keep better work life balance. Sometimes of course we ha I have to work more hours, but I try and make that few and far between, whereas that was almost an everyday occurrence in the past. And so I've just been a lot better about having like a lot of self care, a lot of boundaries, and

it's also because I've had those boundaries and that self-care practice, I've been able to re-pick up my own creative practice. I was able to finish an manuscript of essays I had been working on since 2018. I started, you know, expanding this art practice I started, that's based on textile work. 

While every day might not be, you know, my passion and I'm helping artists get paid and I'm beautifying spaces like I was before. I think I am, setting myself up better for success, and I like to think about it, you know, like when they say on the airplane, put your own oxygen mask on first. I was not caring for myself very well and putting all these other people ahead of me.

And so now that I have been caring for myself more, I feel like I have more to give to other people and the community as a whole.

Heather Pridemore: Now, Deanne, we've made it through this whole conversation and we have really yet to talk about meditation, comedy, or Esther Perel. And so I feel like we can't really leave this conversation without understanding the personal importance of those elements in your life.

Deanne Gertner: I started meditating in 2017 and it was during a really rough patch, personally and at work, and almost instantaneously it was hugely transformative. I can get very in my head about things. I can get pretty anxious, can get very depressed and just like ruminate on the same things over and over again,

hyper fixate. And so being able to notice what's happening in my mind and name it has been so empowering because now I don't feel whipped around by my thoughts as much, or my emotions. I'm able to better kind of allow them to occur and that helps professionally and personally. So, you know, I'm not sending out these heated emails like I may have in the past.

I am trying to be more intentional with the words that I am using when I'm communicating to people. And it really is something that has been so impactful professionally and personally. It's not every moment is a meditative moment, but I'm getting to the point where it's more like that than less.

And when I do fall off the wagon. I can understand the context of what made that occur and be a little bit kinder to myself and have more self-compassion and be able to move on. Before I think when I made mistakes or showed up in a way I didn't want, I would just like beat myself up again and again about it.

But now I can acknowledge like, okay, that wasn't great. You know you can do better and you will do better in the future. And so it's more like talking to myself like a friend. And that helps.

Heather Pridemore: I got more into watching standup comedy, probably since the pandemic and just watching specials on Netflix or different streaming services and it was so helpful to have a laugh while things were feeling so heavy and uncertain.

Deanne Gertner: And I try and integrate humor into my own life and personality, and I just think it makes everything so much lighter. Humor can be really transgressive and subversive, and it can also help lighten the mood when things are really tough at work. And so I think it's one of those underrated skills and it is something that you know, you can work on and develop over time.

And then last with Esther Perel, I just think, I mean, this is an antiquated phrase, but she's like the bee's knees, you know? She is so smart. So compassionate. She brings this wide ranging amount of experience and she's just so wise and listening to her podcast, she has, Where Should We Begin? That's more based on couples therapy, but then her other podcast called How's Work, and you really realize that your personal and the professional are, you can't check either of those at any door when you walk into it. They're hugely interconnected and the same issues you have in your personal life often are gonna show up in your professional life as well. And so it's just been really helpful to listen and kind of eaves drop on these sessions that she has with people.

And even when you think oh, this situation is so different from mine. There's always something that resonates. And so I just think she's been, kind of a beacon of hope. One of her quotes that I just love is the quality of our relationships dictates the quality of our lives. And I really believe that's true in business and in your personal life.

Because most business is based on relationships and the people who have really high quality relationships tend to be healthier. They tend to live longer, and so I'm really invested in making sure I create these really deep relationships with family, friends, and colleagues because I know that's going to help my personal health.

It's gonna help everyone else's, and then it is just gonna make society a better place.

Heather Pridemore: Well, I had a joke. I was, it wasn't even really a joke, but I had something I was gonna say about how your, synopsis of Esther Perel and how it's about that sort of intersection of the personal and the professional, how you can't really compartmentalize them. And I was like, well, that's basically what small accent rebellion is about, but we are getting near the end of the show, Deanne.

And I do want to ask you one final question. So if someone said this conversation was entirely too long, I did not listen, what is the one thing that you'd want them to take away?

Deanne Gertner: That's a great and difficult question to answer. I think it would be, creativity can show up anywhere and it's accessible to anyone. You just have to reach out and take it.

Heather Pridemore: I actually feel a little emotional after that one, Deanne. I could not agree with you more. It's something I've been really feeling a lot of lately. On that note, that might be the perfect place just to end this episode. So thank you so much for being on the show.

Deanne Gertner: Thank you for having me. It was such a pleasure.