Heather Pridemore: Today's guest is Heather Kays, a multifaceted storyteller, armed with a background in political science and media studies from New York University, Heather's journey intertwines award winning journalism, adept marketing management, and a prolific writing career across diverse genres.

Heather's literary journey began at the age of seven, igniting a passion that has flourished into a diverse repertoire of poetry, evocative short stories and impactful books. Beyond her literary accomplishments, Heather is the creator and administrator of The Alchemists an online writing group, fostering a vibrant community and nurturing creativity among aspiring writers.

She also loves to discuss the art of storytelling, navigating complex narratives, and the delicate balance between creativity and marketing. Welcome to the show, Heather.

Heather Kays: Thank you so much for having me.

Heather Pridemore: For those listening, um, I just want to speak to the power of LinkedIn networking, and that's really how Heather and I got connected.

 As I mentioned, she oversees this group called The Alchemists, and that is both a Facebook group and a LinkedIn group. So whichever platform you are on, um, that is open to you. And it's, it's an accountability group. Wouldn't you call it that Heather?

Heather Kays:  Definitely there's a huge, um, accountability component to it. I think it also serves to help inspire people and it's a place to really vent your challenges and writing and trying to get published. Um, it's a long, difficult process and it's nice to have a support system.

Heather Pridemore: If you all get involved with Heather, whether it be through The Alchemist or you start to follow her on LinkedIn, you are going to find that she is very supportive.  Heather was very frequently engaging with different posts that I was putting up and we were having some back and forth, and so we were just like, well, we should just meet up, right? We should just have a, a Zoom connection, a a quick virtual coffee chat. And so that's really how I got to know Heather and learn some more about her writing. So I'm really excited that she's here. And, you know, without any further ado, I think it's worth us just, um, jumping in.

And so what I really wanted to start with Heather, is when we were talking you talked a lot about some various like career changes, and I thought this was really interesting because you started your career, um, selling ads for the paper at age 18, but you've transitioned over the years with roles in journalism, marketing, and as a book author, and I'd love to know how you got started, you know, what some of the obstacles that you faced were, and then what insights you can offer about these sort of non-linear career paths.

Heather Kays: Exactly what you just said is important for people to remember and keep in mind, success is not linear. Whatever it is that you think that your journey and path is supposed to look like, be prepared for it to go completely differently than that. Um, we get set on this idea that there are certain things that we're supposed to do in our lives and if you are open-minded and willing to try something different, you have a tendency to find a lot more success and opportunity and happiness along the way. That was my experience. So I started out in sales. I had done telemarketing when I was in high school, so I had experience. I got hired by the newspaper to sell like big display ads. and I was very good at it. I was selling thousands and thousands of dollars worth of ads every single month and making a ton of commission money, um, more money than I ever thought that I would see, and I absolutely hated it. I hated it so, so much. I felt like in order to be good at that job, I needed to lie. I had to be somewhat dishonest and really talk up, um, how amazing the ads were going to be. Um, and with something like a newspaper ad, you can't guarantee, sales are going to convert and that someone's going to get X number of customers. But if you don't sort of hint at or strongly imply that that's going to be the result, then no one's gonna buy the ad. I just found myself deeply unhappy and unsatisfied. I felt like I had to behave like somebody I didn't really wanna be. So, um, my plan was just to walk around the office building and to make friends with people in different departments. I would just walk up to strangers and start a conversation as if that's a normal thing to do, and it worked. I made friends with some people in the editorial department of the Harold News. And, uh, they told me about a part-time typist, editorial assistant job, and I got the job. So I was typing up press releases and getting coffee for people and handing out faxes, but that was my first exposure to professional writers.

So I saw these reporters who were answering the phones and going out to report stories, and then the next day their names would be in the newspaper. And it was like a miracle to me watching that, seeing people actually paid to live based off of writing the thing that I love doing the most in the world. I started writing when I was seven years old. No one ever even hinted to me that it was a possibility as a career I. So it, it was just sort of serendipity that I found myself in that newsroom and I decided that that was what I was going to do. and everyone in the newsroom laughed at me. All of my coworkers told me that I was crazy. I didn't have a journalism degree. I didn't have the right pedigree, I didn't have any experience. There was a 0% chance that anyone was ever going to let me write for the newspaper. and I said, okay, we'll see. And then for a year and a half I did two jobs, basically. I worked as an editorial assistant, um, and then I volunteered all of the rest of my time doing any other writing nobody else wanted to do. So I would write all the weather stories, they would send me to really long, boring meetings no one else wanted to go to. I would volunteer to work holidays and weekends and I just thought. I'll, I'll prove myself, eventually. I'll put in enough time and effort that it'll matter. And a year and a half later, the editor called me into his office and I thought I was in trouble.

I was super nervous and he milked it. He drew it out a little bit, um, because he thought it was really funny. And then he offered me the position as a reporter. I've been writing professionally ever since then in some capacity.

Heather Pridemore: When you were first talking about moving around the office and talking and like networking with all of your coworkers, I just wanna point out for those listening how important networking is. I mentioned at the top, Heather and I met through, you know, networking on LinkedIn and through The Alchemists. And, you know, Heather is talking about networking at work, and I can also speak to the importance of being interconnected with your coworkers. We hear all the time how important networking is, right? And I did that in air quotes for those who could not see me. But we hear all the time about how important networking is, and it doesn't have to be some big, complicated thing.

And so Heather said, I just went up and I said hello to people. And so could you just elaborate just a little bit, Heather, on what some of those conversations when you were doing that initial networking looked like?

Heather Kays: Sure. So you walk up to somebody's desk, um, you don't know anything about them. You see that they have a baseball on their desk. So you start talking about baseball. You see they have a picture of their family. Oh, that is a beautiful vacation photo. Where were you guys? Um, you ask them about their work.

People love talking about themselves. Act interested, be interested. If you're faking it, they'll notice. Ask them about what they like about their job. What do they hate about it? Um, what did they wish they could change? These are all questions that I would bring up in these conversations. So I would develop actual friendships with these people. So they were much more inclined to help me when positions opened up elsewhere in the company. I think if I wouldn't have been. Genuinely, sincerely, interested in what they were saying, and if I wasn't as friendly, it probably wouldn't have been as effective.

Heather Pridemore: You also mentioned how much you hated sort of that initial role when you were selling ads, but you were good at it, and I'm sure many people can relate with this idea of working in a job that, you know, maybe doesn't. make their heart sing, and yet they're very good at it. They're very talented at it.

And so when you were in that period, Heather, you know, what was your like approach to the work that you were doing, and then how were you sort of preparing for that next phase of your journey?

Heather Kays: So I think that part of the reason I was as good at sales as I was, um, my mother was a sales woman and she was incredibly talented. She just had the personality, um, whatever makes a top salesperson. She had a gift. You would hear her on the phone with a client and she didn't even have the same voice as if she was having a conversation with you any other time. She turned it on, like how movie stars do. And I don't have that, but I imitated it a little bit. I picked up little bits and pieces of whatever that charisma is that she had. And I think that I started to understand that a lot of it in sales is, it's about relationships. It's about making people feel like they matter and they're important. If you make a client feel like you care about them and their success, they're much more inclined to want to work with you or buy from you. So, um, and then shifting to the writing, which is something I always wanted to do, but never thought I would have the opportunity to do professionally. Every single day I would wake up and it felt like a dream come true. So I would attack with everything that I had, every single story I wrote you would think that the Pulitzer Committee was gonna review my work and people would laugh at me and make fun of me for trying so hard for caring so much for pouring my heart and soul into every sentence that I wrote. But I wouldn't change any of it. I'm happy for those experiences and I think that they made me better at marketing, better at writing, and just a, a better, happier person, a more fulfilled person overall.

Heather Pridemore: Now, Heather, you mentioned that your mom had had a background in sales and then of course you started your career in sales. And so I'm just wondering like what influence do you think seeing someone working in sales had on you sort of following that career path versus doing something else? 

Heather Kays: My mother actually had worked at the same company years prior to me arriving there. So there was a little bit of a feeling that I was following in her footsteps. Um, part of that was great because people were very welcoming. but there was also a huge expectation for me to live up to the example that she set.

And as I said, it came very naturally to her. Nobody was as good at sales as my mom was, so people expecting me to come in and produce the numbers that she did, it was unrealistic and probably not really a fair expectation. But that's what happens when, you know. You follow in someone in your family's footsteps.

Um, so I think that that probably also made it a little bit harder for me to, to enjoy that role.

Heather Pridemore: Now when you were talking about how you made that segue from sort of typing press releases and getting coffee, you talked about taking on a lot of extra work. My little red flag popped up because like in today's, you know, day and age, I think that many of us are still carrying that mentality where if we just work hard, if we just go above and beyond, if we just put in a little extra that that's going to get us to the next phase of our journey, our career journey.

But often we find that, it doesn't take much for us to kind of just become this unnoticed cog in the machine and all that hard extra work that we're doing starts to be taken for granted. And so I'm wondering if you think that you know, what your thoughts are about that and how it applies to the experience that you had.

Heather Kays: So I don't know if I were to be 18 now that I could recreate the experience that I had rising through the ranks and building a path out of nothing for myself. I don't even know if it's possible to do that now, um, because exactly what you're saying is true. Even in my freelance career, when I apply for a position, I will sometimes have businesses and business owners come back to me and say that they want additional, um, articles. Can you do another sample assignment? Can you work free, longer? Make another piece for us, do this other, something that I know that they'll probably end up using in some way, shape, or form, even though I'm never going to see a penny for it.

And over the years I've needed to, get a little smarter and sort of really consider whether or not it's worth me putting the extra time and effort in, I absolutely would not do now the things that I did when I was 18 years old. I am older and wiser and I have no intention of spending my career being taken advantage of, for a living.

So I have a totally different mindset now than I did then. And if it weren't those exact editors and those exact people, I was working for and with at the time, I might've had a very different result. They might've just taken the work from me and I never would've gotten the promotion, and it would've just been a, a massive heartbreak for me. 

Heather Pridemore: Now, I think, um, you know, when you were talking about the boundaries that you're setting in your career now, and I don't think this is specific just to entrepreneurship. I think this can happen and is useful information for those who are working a, you know, traditional W2 type of role. But you're really talking about self-advocacy and it's certainly one of my favorite topics because I think often when we're in our career, especially working in a W2 role, and you know, now that I'm on the entrepreneurship side, I'm starting to sort of understand this from the, like the opposite side of the equation. But I think that, you know, we think, oh well my boss is like asking this thing of me, or you know, in this case my client is asking this thing of me and I'm going to lose out on opportunities if I don't comply.

So what I hear you saying, Heather, is that like that's not necessarily the case and for what it's worth, that hasn't been my own personal experience either. But, um, you know, do you have any thoughts on that?

Heather Kays: We end up limiting ourselves by thinking in that way, and I did think that way for years. I was a people pleaser and I wanted to perform well. And I always want it to exceed expectations. So sometimes I would be asked to, um, meet unrealistic deadlines or take on more projects than were really reasonable. And I would always say yes and then burn out. Get stressed out. And it would really take a toll on me. As you get older, you start to understand and realize, um, if you set a boundary and you decide that you're not going to do something that's unreasonable. There will be other opportunities. This idea that if you don't succeed in this exact moment, in this exact way with this client, then it's the end of the road for you. It's just untrue, and unfortunately, it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you decide that you're a failure, then you failed. But if you wake up every day and say it's a shame that it didn't work out with that awful client, but you realize that your life is better and you're in a healthier position now, then you'll go out and you'll find more clients.

 None of us are beholden to, to these unfair, unrealistic expectations and demands that are being made and so we need to fight and advocate for ourselves and protect our own peace.

Heather Pridemore: I mean, it's all certainly, you know, easier said than done. I mean, I think a lot of people right now are probably grappling with, you know, with these concepts because, you know, many people are getting laid off and there's a lot of turmoil right now. And so I think that, you know, for those listening who maybe are struggling with those thoughts.

I recognize, we recognize that it's easier said than done, but it is important to sort of hold on to those concepts for yourself because, if you let someone take advantage of you, they will. If you don't believe in yourself, like, you have to be your biggest cheerleader, which is why I'm such a big advocate for, uh, for self-advocacy.

I think it's just so important and so pivotal in our ability to navigate our career development and make sure that we're getting what we need from both our, our work and our life. So, I'll get off my soap box. 

 I just, I do wanna point out that you're, you're exactly right. No one teaches you this. You go through all your years of school, you go to college, you have mentors. Nobody ever sits us down and tells us people are going to try to take terrible advantage of you and just be absolutely awful and unethical and you're going to have to figure out how to navigate this,

Heather Kays: good luck kid. Nobody really warns us that, we need to learn how to stand up for ourselves in the business world. But it's an important skill and I cannot think of one instance where I've stood up and said no and regretted it. So that's, I just think that's worth noting.

Heather Pridemore: I totally concur and I could, we could go down a whole other conversation about how alignment with your values and, and belief systems and all is so important. But I wanna make sure that we get a chance to talk about, the rest of your career. So Heather, you, you know, we've talked quite a bit now about your journalism experience, but you've made a couple changes since then.

And so you went into marketing and then eventually you became an author. And so I want you to talk just a little bit more about like the rest of those transitions.

Heather Kays: I was in journalism for a decade, at the same two newspapers, the Harold News and the Bergen Record. Two big papers in New Jersey, for the bulk of that time, and I loved it. It was wonderful. I felt like I was helping people. Um, it was so fulfilling but then journalism really changed.

The entire industry shifted. Everything went, to the web. So you are writing for, you know, online rather than print. Um, and I didn't feel like it was the same. I didn't feel like I was helping as much anymore. If I got asked to write one more Real Housewives article, I was gonna lose my mind. That's not what I wanted to do. So I shifted to marketing, because a lot of the skills that I gained as a journalist really translate. I'm a better marketer because of my journalism background. I really do believe that. It made me feel like I could still help people have a voice and tell their stories.

I was just helping businesses now instead of individuals. So I just did it, just freelancing. I started applying for contracts and taking on freelance, gigs, and I got better and better at it. So the opportunities got better and better. I've, done work for Meta. I have worked at Audible, I've worked with some big companies and done some really cool things. And I think if I wouldn't have stuck with the freelance, I probably wouldn't have had those opportunities. I've had a lot of freedom and flexibility and, uh, the ability to really decide what I wanna work on and who I wanna work with. My entire career doesn't really make a lot of sense. I just make decisions and hope that it pans out.

And then if I try something and it doesn't work, then I try something else. And um, it's, that's not advice anyone is ever going to give you. No career coach is ever gonna be like, ah, just wing it. Go, go do what makes you happy. But that is my advice to everyone. Whatever crazy idea you have, that seems impossible. Try it anyway. Nobody gets to tell you who you get to be. You decide that.

Heather Pridemore: Yeah, I love that. and for what it's worth as a career development coach, I would say go after your happy, but have a plan. You know, have a plan. It's 

okay if it doesn't go according to plan, but at least have a plan, uh, at least to begin with. So, okay, so you moved from journalism to marketing, and then you started writing more like, let's just say when you started writing books.

And so tell me a little bit about that transition.

Heather Kays:  So I had a tough childhood. I, grew up in an abusive household, lots of trauma, years of therapy as an adult. All of that. And I have been writing since I was seven years old, as a way to really cope and process with all of the neglect, abuse, trauma, and so on. My mom, uh, struggled with alcoholism and addiction throughout her life, and she was a major influence on me and the person I became.

 She encouraged me to write a book about my life, because I have experienced quite a bit for a person my age, good and bad. And I think that, in her mind I am a very resilient person. So she told me to write a book about my life and she said, uh, not only did she think it would help me, but that she thought it would help other people. And we had these long conversations where I would sort of explain to her, mom, I'm not sure that you really want me to write this book because I feel like if I write it, I have to tell the truth and not everybody is gonna come out looking great. And so she asked me, knowing that I was talking about her, what exactly was it that I intended to share? I listed about a dozen memories from my childhood off the top of my head. Rough stuff, like very real. And she was floored. She said, I cannot believe you remember all of that. And I was like, yeah, I sure do. And she was like, well, just tell the truth. That was it. And it really meant a lot to me that she was willing to put her ego aside and not obsess over what she looked like to other people and how they would perceive her.

 That she thought that this was important enough that she gave me permission to really share the darkest parts of her life with the world. I tried to write it a million times over and couldn't bring myself to do it. I just wasn't healed enough at the time. I wasn't healthy enough at the time to be able to tap into those emotions from the past and not have it negatively impact me. But you know, years later, here I am, and now I am mentally and emotionally strong enough to be able to write about these things now. And it's been an amazing process. It's been very cathartic and therapeutic, but also extremely difficult. It sort of feels like you're putting your heart and soul onto the page when you write about something this deeply personal and it can really take a toll on you.

 So it's been a lot. So the first book I wrote is called Pieces of Us. It's a memoir slash family saga. That's about my mother's life and her struggles with alcohol and addiction, and basically like the two sides of her, how on one hand she was this beautiful, intelligent, charismatic, amazing woman. And on the other hand, she was an absolute train wreck, um, who, you know, suffered a lot of abuse, but also never sought therapy, never healed, never was able to move on from those things. And the pieces of us really, it's a, like the story of my whole family. That's why I called it Pieces of Us.

It's not just her story. It's not just my story. It's how we all struggled through and tried to figure out ways to break the cycle of abuse and to really find out and become the people we were supposed to be along the way, even though we didn't have the support systems that you would hope for.

Heather Pridemore: So, you know, I heard you say something when you were just, uh, when you were just talking, Heather, and it kind of reminded me of something you said earlier when you were talking about your role in sales, and there tends to be this Theme, if you will, of honesty. And so if it's okay with you, I'd actually like to read just like one paragraph from Pieces of Us,

and then I do have some follow up questions, but um, if you'll allow me, could I, could I read a paragraph?

Heather Kays: Absolutely.

Heather Pridemore: This is from Pieces of Us, "My mother didn't wrestle with her demons. She invited them to stay and handed them a drink. I remember with great clarity, these sort of grief rituals she would have.

She would listen to the same song that made her sad on repeat until she broke down crying. Night's in White Satin by the Moody Blues was in heavy rotation. But there were a few other equally melancholy songs that made their way onto the record player as the years passed. to someone else this might have seemed strange or obsessive, perhaps it was, but to me it seemed like a way Emma Mae could try to process the things that had happened to her.

She was sharing authentic emotion and letting herself feel and this seemed like a victory to me when I was a child. in an environment where honesty was not encouraged. It felt like an act of defiance. Maybe it did to her too." So it's interesting, Heather, that like you saw like how important you said living like authentically and honestly when you were looking, you know, trying to navigate your career, but then also as you were just talking about, you know, speaking honestly, when you were writing your book.

And then even in the book itself, you talk about honesty being an act of defiance. I know I have like a whole slew of other questions to ask, but I'm, I'm just curious, like what are your thoughts on honesty as a form of defiance?

Heather Kays: I think that it is, uh, probably underrated as a form of defiance. I think we wander around pretending that we're all these truth telling characters, main characters in our story who were like moral and ethical. And we always say the the true, honest thing. When you're actually living life, it hardly ever really plays out that way. I grew up in a house where I was never allowed to be honest. I was always told what to think and what to feel and what I was allowed to share. We painted a picture of this happy, put together family and it was a total lie. Everything about that was false and it made me sick to my stomach to have to tell those lies and keep those secrets. I grew tired of trying to hide other people's shame for them so I became a very honest person around the age of 16 or so. Finally, I found a voice and then you couldn't shut me up. Everybody was gonna hear the truth all the time. It did not go great in that house. It was not well received. But I still am that way. I, I've been through traumatic things throughout different points in my life, and I still, I tell those stories. I, I talk about the abuse, I talk about the trauma. It's how you take your power back. It's the difference between a survivor and a victim. I can tell those stories and share those parts of myself, and I don't think that it makes me irrevocably broken. So yeah, there's a lot of power in that.

Heather Pridemore: Do you think that this role as truth teller influenced your decision or your attraction to the role of journalism?

Heather Kays: Oh yeah, big time. Because I was doing investigative work for a lot of that time too, so I wasn't just telling the truth and, you know, being, being honest about nice things. I was holding people accountable for the awful things that they chose to do and it was exciting. And it really did make me feel like I was helping and, you know, doing something positive. So if you ever have the opportunity to tell the truth and to, and to just like speak your truth, you might not understand the impact that that's going to have on the people around you. I know that my siblings are the same way now, but if they hadn't seen me and my mother telling our truths, maybe they wouldn't have been in a position to feel like they could ever break out of what they grew up in.

Heather Pridemore: You've talked about writing as a form of truth telling. You've talked about writing as a form of accountability, but you also have used writing as a form of healing, and so your book, um, pieces of us was sort of your own process to heal, but you've also started another book, 

 this new book is a young adult novel called Lila's Letters, and this book is the process someone is unveiling and, navigating trauma through the healing power of unsent letters. 

Heather, could you talk just a little bit more about the role that writing has played in your own healing journey, which we're already starting to see from Pieces of Us, and then ultimately how that experience influenced Lila's Letters, this new book that you're writing.

Heather Kays: So I finished writing pieces of us. I'm in the process of working with a really talented editor to put, you know, finishing touches and polish it and get it so that it's ready, for a literary agent and publisher and I got sad that I wasn't writing Pieces of Us anymore. I missed the process of writing a book.

And I thought about all of the things that I could have included in Pieces of Us but didn't have the chance to. I was telling my whole family's story, so I couldn't tell the story of every single thing that's ever happened to me. And it occurred to me how many other people I know who have similar stories of abuse and trauma that they dealt with during their, uh, you know, childhood and then had to recover from and figure out how to heal from in their adult life. So I decided to write Lila's Letters, which is a combination of, some of it is me, some of it is people I know, some of it is completely fictional, but it's all these different stories. The main character, Lila, writes letters to different significant people in her life. 

 And then the last letter is to herself. And she doesn't send any of the letters. That's not the point. It's the exercise of finding the words to describe the feelings and it's a very healing thing to do. You can do it through journaling, you can do it any, any number of ways.

But I think that writing as a tool to help healing, especially from abuse and trauma, is very underrated and not, um, explored as often as it should be. Because it's helped me tremendously. I know it's helped a couple of my siblings, I have friends who have experienced the same, putting it down on paper, figuring out how you would describe it to somebody else so that they feel what you felt, they understand where you're coming from. It makes you understand things about yourself that are not apparent, without having done that exercise. 

Heather Pridemore: So I actually just earmarked a small paragraph from Lila's Letters and I would like to share that if that's okay with you.

Heather Kays: Mm-Hmm.

Heather Pridemore: Okay, so here is a little excerpt from Lila's Letters. " The world is full of people who want to place you in boxes. There is a plan, a script, a pattern, and a path that you are supposed to follow.

Go to school, get a job, get married, buy a house, and have kids. It sounded like certain death to Lyla.". Heather, you were just talking about how this book, Lila's Letters, is really a culmination of fiction and your own personal stories. And so when you hear that paragraph, like how much of that resonates for you personally?

Heather Kays: That is a hundred percent me. That's all me. That's how I felt when I was young. I had, you know, teachers and guidance counselors and adults in my life who all had this idea of what I was supposed to be, and it all sounded awful to me. And then they were my examples and I looked at them and I was just like, you're all miserable. Why do you think I wanna emulate you? Like, I absolutely do not wanna follow that plan. It sounds terrible and it looks terrible. So I just, um, I didn't do what I was supposed to do at any point. I didn't go to college after I graduated from high school, I started working immediately and then years later I went to college and I did that for myself.

I think I was proving something to myself. I was working alongside of all of these people with multiple degrees from Ivy League universities, and I wanted to to know, did I really belong there? Should I have been sitting next to those people doing the same job as them? So I got into NYU and it was a great experience.

I loved going there, but I probably didn't need to do it. I already had a career. I think my point with that is just find your, what makes you happy and that's allowed to change over time. You can pivot at any moment. You can. You can spend years building towards something and then decide you hate it. You're allowed to do that. Um, and anyone who tells you that you're not but they don't have the power to do that. They don't get to tell you that even if it's your parents, even if it's your significant other, nobody gets to, to dictate your story. You, you, that's up to you and you alone.

Heather Pridemore: As you're talking and, and sort of resonating with that paragraph, it's pretty reflective too of your overall lifestyle. One of the things that stood out to me as we were getting to know each other was that you've been a bit of a nomad, which kind of seems to reflect a broader theme of like seeking out new beginnings.

And so I'm just wondering like how has this philosophy of constant movement and exploration influenced your perspective on both your life and your work?

Heather Kays: I am a huge fan of new beginnings. I think it's one of the greatest things you can experience in life. I love a clean slate. I love a new city, meeting strangers, making friends. Just I like change. A lot of people are scared of it, it's difficult to deal with, but you miss out on a lot if you're not willing to, to branch out and do different things. So I have up and relocated, uh, to other states multiple times. I lived all over New Jersey, growing up probably somewhere in the double digits. the number of different towns that I have lived in, in New Jersey. I lived in Stanton, Virginia. Which is in the Shenandoah Valley, it's absolutely beautiful. Austin, Texas, Springfield, Virginia. And I am going to be, um, making a move to St. Louis as well. And throughout all of these different moves, I have, found a lot of opportunity that I would not have found otherwise. It opens up your career in a lot of ways, and e every other aspect of your life, you know, culture, art, experiences, if you're willing to relocate you, there's, there's just so much more for you to discover.

Heather Pridemore: In another episode, there is some discussion about the influence that like moving can have on your career trajectory. And so I would just add to what Heather said about how, you know, just like moving can open up opportunities. It can also change the course of your career or you know, maybe staying put can be the thing that helps you like climb the corporate ladder at a very specific company.

And so I think it's important when we think about the intersection of our personal and our professional lives that, you know, by no means is making a move not going to be impactful. But I think if you were really listening to what Heather said, you recognize that it doesn't always mean that it's gonna be negatively impactful, because I think sometimes we think if we don't stick it out, you know, in a certain industry or a certain, you know, workplace or, have a specific employer, that that is going to be somehow detrimental to our careers. And honestly, there's a lot of research that says otherwise, right? I can't tell you the number of articles I've read that say that you should change, you know, jobs every two to three years in order to maximize your like earning potential over the course of your life. And so I think it's really interesting what you're talking about, Heather, just about how moving can be also an opportunity.

 There have been, like, pivotal moments, like specific moments in my life where I really felt like I could use a fresh start. Sometimes it's you need that, you, like, you sincerely need that. I don't ever want my to feel like I'm stagnating; in my life, in my relationships, in my profession, in any aspect of my life, I always wanna be growing and learning and experiencing new things. And sometimes the best way to accomplish that is relocating and finding a new path.

I think that's a good. Segue, Heather, we are approaching the end of the show and I like to end each episode by asking if someone said, this was too long, I didn't listen, what is the one thing that you'd want them to take away from this conversation?

Heather Kays: You're more powerful than you think you are. You're going to have a lot of people try to influence you and tell you what your life is supposed to look like, and that's just nonsense. It's not up to them, not your parents, not your teachers. It's up to you. Try to find a way to make yourself happy and, be as honest with yourself and with other people as you can be along the way and you'll have a happy life.

Heather Pridemore: Such a strong note to end on. The honesty to yourself I think is, probably the most powerful form of honesty that we could potentially talk about, so thank you so much, Heather, for being on the show. This was such a great conversation.

Heather Kays: Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed it.

Heather Pridemore: There were two things that really stood out to me about this episode. And the first was honesty as an act of defiance, especially when that honesty is to ourselves. What a powerful concept to think about being honest as a way of being rebellious, but also how the most important form of honesty are the truth telling that we do to ourselves.

And so I'm going to let you sit with that one because it's pretty amazing. The other thing that really impacted me from this episode was this idea of writing as a form of truth telling, a form of accountability, and a form of healing. And I think that you don't have to be a writer, or want to be an author to gain something from those insights.

I mean, we talk all the time about reflection and journaling. I'm actually not a journaler, but I do like to write things down. I do like to save notes. And so I think that it can mean something different to all of us, but I do think there are It's like powerful to put words on paper. And I would urge you to try it if you were trying to process something, or trying to understand something.

Someone recently, uh, quoted to me something they had read, and they said that if you can't write it, you don't understand it.