Heather Pridemore: Before we begin today's episode, I want to issue a content warning. This episode includes a candid discussion about suicide and addiction, focusing on our guest’s personal experiences with these challenging issues. While we approach these topics with the utmost respect and sensitivity, please be aware that this content can be sensitive and potentially triggering for some listeners.

If you or someone you know is struggling with thoughts of suicide or dealing with addiction, it's important to know that help is available. Our goal in sharing these personal stories is to provide insight, foster understanding, and create a space for open and meaningful conversation. However, we respect and understand if you choose to skip this episode.

We appreciate your listenership and remind you to take care of yourself as you listen. Now let's begin the episode.

Heather Pridemore: My guest today is Nancy J. McKay, a life coach, equus coach and Master Facilitator who gives women a safe place to explore their fears and struggles without judgment. She is the founder of Amazing Outlook Coaching and works with women virtually and with the help of horses to discover what they truly want out of life.

Nancy quit drinking in 2009 and is an ovarian cancer survivor. She's also a contributing author to three multi-author books. Her chapters, The Intersection of Desperation and Grace for Ready to Fly Volume 3, The Gifts of Adversity, for the International Bestseller, Phoenix Rising; Powerful Women Who Rose from the Ashes to Claim Their Place,

and Your Inner Wisdom for International Bestseller, Corporate Dropouts: From Employee to Entrepreneur. All three capture her inspiring story of recovery and creating a new life after cancer. She has been an executive contributor to Brains Magazine and has been selected for their Brains 500 Global list of influential leaders.

She has also been published in Authority Magazine, Medium and Thrive Global, and I'm sure she'd be happy if I shared some of these publications in the show notes. Welcome to the show, Nancy!

Nancy J McKay: Thank you so much. It's really nice to be here.

Heather Pridemore: You and I are part of a community called Tara. And Tara is this community designed to provide connection for both entrepreneurs and professionals. They have office and coworking spaces, and they offer a lot of opportunities for networking and community building. Now Nancy and I participate in several bridge groups, which is how we learned about each other.

And Nancy does something really cool that I'm hoping she'll talk a little bit more about. And so Nancy, could you just share a little bit more about the kind of coaching that you do and explain what an equus coach does and why it's so special.

Nancy J McKay: So I'm an equus coach and that means I, um, work with horses as co-facilitators in my life coaching. So what that means is, is that horses, because they're so intuitive, they read the energy that we put out into the world. They don't lie and we can't lie to them because they know the truth. they can sense the incongruity that we have, if they sense an incongruity, then they won't trust us. And if they don't trust us, then they won't interact with us. So that tells us a lot. If, if I have a client in the round pen and they're indicating to me that everything is, is fine, but underlying they've got some angst going on, then the horse can pick that up and they won't have a tendency to interact with them because they're not trusting that person.

and They're the same way with, with their herd mates, with other horses. If, you know, if they don't trust the other horse, then they won't hang out with them either. So this is all because they're prey animals and they depend on the other members in the herd to keep them safe. And so it's, it's all about safety for them. And when we land on our truth, then our body just instinctively relaxes. It's like, you know, you say something that's, your inner truth and your body just, you know, kind of just relaxes. And the horse picks up on that and they will do the same thing. They'll relax and they, and they show that by licking and chewing and maybe even laying down on the ground and rolling around.

And it's, it's just, it's amazing. Horses are magic.

Heather Pridemore: That's a great segue because um, you didn't grow up around horses, and so I'm

 curious, could you talk a little bit about your first encounter with a horse and how that experience has contributed to your coaching?

Nancy J McKay: Oh, sure. so the first time I had an experience, like what I do, was in 2017. I was in New Mexico in Santa Fe for a, a work conference. And I was looking for something to do, you know, unusual and, and I found this advertisement for equus coaching. And so I managed to get an appointment It was just the most amazing session. You know, I, I got to interact with several horses and a donkey who really wanted to crawl into my lap when I was, when I was sitting there, and the horse that, that I was working with, that, that I really kind of picked out, that I could tell that we had a connection. she just, she looked into my eyes Yeah. At that point in my life, I had survived cancer. I was, many years in recovery and I was still feeling unsure of myself. And this horse looked into my soul, it felt like, and told me that I was okay just the way I was. You know, that was the message that I got from her and it, you know, I could feel it in my body and it was just so impactful that, you know, that's what set, set the wheels in motion for me to learn how to do the work and, I think I had just started or was on the verge of starting my life coaching training. And I knew that I wanted to incorporate the work of with horses somehow. And ultimately I did.

Heather Pridemore: Do you do other activities with horses, Nancy, after having that experience, or is it, do you really keep it more to this, I'll call it a, a spiritual connection?

Nancy J McKay:  Yeah, I really do. I don't ride much. I needed to learn how to ride when I was in training, and I love that. But, I. That's not my, my thing is the, the connection, the, the magical connection that I get from them, and it just makes my heart, it makes my heart sing. I just, you know, there's just something about it that makes it such a magical experience.

I, you know, I, I know I use that word often and. I probably overuse it, but that's what it feels like to me is that you can, shift and you can make a transformation in a very short period of time because of how the horse can, can relate to you and the feedback that they give you just, you know, it's a visceral change, you can feel it in your body. And, and so it's rapid, you know, I could, do virtual coaching with someone and that's fabulous. But if there's a horse involved, the transformation is gonna happen that much faster. 

Heather Pridemore: Now you've talked openly about your recovery journey and, you know, quitting alcohol in 2009 was undoubtedly a major turning point for you how have your experiences since then shaped the way you approach challenges and opportunities in your life and your work?

Nancy J McKay: Quitting drinking has been the most important thing I've ever done in my life. it's certainly the biggest gift I've ever given myself, I know that if, if I can quit drinking. I can do anything. You know, we live in a culture that promotes drinking and so anyone who can quit doing something when our culture promotes it, is, you know, a hero as far as I'm concerned. You know, it's just, it's, it's one of those difficult things and I, you know, I'm not, you know, I have a lot of shortcomings, but the fact that I was able to do that for myself and stick with it, I know that there's, you know, a, a higher power or, the universe has my back, whatever you wanna call it. There's that element involved because, you know, I, I have the willpower of a gnat. You know, I just, I wouldn't be able to willpower my way through anything. And the fact that I haven't had a drink in almost 15 years is beyond me. I mean, it's a, it's a fucking miracle. And, I'm just, I'm awfully grateful to be able to say that. And, And know that it's not just me, but it, you know, it, it takes work. And for some reason I was willing to do it.

Heather Pridemore: Was your recovery, Nancy, part of this journey to change careers because you had a more traditional, like corporate type career prior and you decided to go and get your life coaching certification and your equus coaching all kind of, you know, around the same time. So did this play a role in that or?

Nancy J McKay: Well, it did in that I, you know, I, you learn a lot about yourself when you're in recovery, when you get sober, you know, whether it's from a, a substance or if you have a eating disorder and you go through the recovery process with that, or any kind of, addictive behavior. In order to maintain it, you have to do some deep personal work in order to, stay sober or, you know, maintain your recovery, however you wanna look at that. And so the, the personal work that I did enabled me to know that I was worth. Making life changes for, I think the biggest, impetus for the, for the career change however, was when I was diagnosed with cancer and after I went through treatment for that, even though I was diagnosed early, you know, there's something about that the, the C word that really gets your attention and it was one of those things where, you know, I had a, you know, it was a good job. I was making good money and I had great benefits and all the things looked great except I was miserable inside. And when you get a, what felt like a second chance for me and really even a, a third chance, you know, I got sober and I survived cancer. I, I knew that I needed to do something different. And, one of my tagline taglines is, I, I didn't get sober and survive cancer to not lead an inspired life. And that's the way it felt to me if I had, you know, stayed with my job. I would like to think that I would've stayed with it for the right reasons and not the wrong reasons. and I just, I really just couldn't figure out a really compelling reason to stay doing work that I, that I didn't enjoy. I just wanted to do more meaningful work, something that fed my soul and help others.

Heather Pridemore: Now in addition to your coaching, um, practice and your, your equus coaching, you've recently started helping with another, group that's related to recovery. Correct. Could you, could you talk a little bit about that? I.

Nancy J McKay: She Recovers is a, nonprofit that helps women and non-binary individuals seek and increase their recovery capital. It's just the most amazing community. I stumbled onto their Facebook group and, attended a webinar early in, 2023 and was just blown away by the organization, by the women who started the organization, Dawn Nickel and her daughter Taryn Strong, started this, foundation and it's just incredible. the number of women that they've reached and they've helped is in the hundreds of thousands. And so I, I just became so, enamored with them that I got my coach designation with them. I'm now, facilitating online gatherings and I've just started a sharing circle here in Denver. And so, you know, I am, I'm in love with them and I just, I can't say enough good things about them.

And, and they don't just address substance issues. It's, you know, their, their tagline is, we're all recovering from something. And that just resonated with me so much because it's not just about substances, it's about trauma and cancer and other health stuff. And, eating disorders and, you know, anxiety and grief and, you know, there's something that everyone has experienced and here's this fabulous community that helps all of us. And it's just, I couldn't be more grateful to, to be in their community and, and I'm thrilled that I can give back. 

Heather Pridemore: I'm hearing this, I'm gonna call it a theme. I'm not sure that's the right word, but you know, when you were talking about working with the horses. There's this like sense of connection and now you're talking about this community and there's this sense of connection. So I'm a little curious what role connection has played in this journey for you, Nancy?

Nancy J McKay: One of the things that I'm getting, and, and I think this is so important for, for anyone who is an entrepreneur, you know, it can be very isolating. when I do most of my, work virtually with clients, I'm sitting here in my office, you know, when I get to work with someone with the horses, then that's incredible. And I'm out, out in the world, but it can be very lonely, being a solopreneur. And so community is becoming so important to me. And, the connections that I've made and the, you know, I'd like to thank friends that I've made at Tara and I'm involved in another, women's group, the connections I've made there, and, and it's just, I think it's really important and I think as women, it's so important for us to feel connected to each other without any kind of competition

and there's enough. Enough in the universe for all of us to collaborate and work together and connect and I think it's just so important for us it's nice to know that, that I am a member of these new communities and, so it's very empowering and gratifying and, you know, I, I am very grateful for it.

Heather Pridemore: I can relate with a lot of what you're saying in that respect, Nancy. previously I was in a corporate environment and I had a fairly large team that I worked with regularly, and now, you know, similar to you, I'm a solopreneur and so I'm having to find those opportunities for, collaboration, conversation, connection.

So, totally, totally resonate with you there. Now I wanna shift gears just a little bit because I think this ties to the equus coaching and to the recovery, and you and I talked about something called Body Wisdom and I thought this was just really interesting. And so you were telling me That the concept is basically that our bodies hold truth while our minds can sometimes deceive us.

And since it was intriguing, I just thought, could you share a little bit about how you've, um, like what you've experienced or witnessed When it comes to this concept of body wisdom and how this has shown up for both your coaching practice, but also for you personally?

Nancy J McKay: One of the things that, I know personally is that intuition sounds, it sounds kind of, it can sound kind of woo woo and, you know, I think a lot of people don't understand what intuition is, right. It's a, it's a word that means you, you have a deeper awareness of something. Right? But it doesn't really tell you what that is. So the term, gut instinct or your gut knows, that's more descriptive of what intuition is, right? The first time I was really aware of it, I was, it was the first weekend that I was at college.

My boyfriend at the time took me to college and, hung out for the weekend and there was, you know, I was ready for him to go home. And I could feel this sort of bubbling in my, in my core, you know, it's kind of hard to explain, but I could feel something happening in my body where I was kind of anxious for him to go home so I could get on with my college life. Right. 

But I was, a people pleaser and so I didn't want to say, I'm ready for you to go home now so I can get on with things. And so during this weekend he asked me to marry him and I had a more, intense feeling in my stomach that was my body trying to tell me the, you know, this is not a good idea, and yet my brain, my people pleaser told me, this is the only man that's ever gonna ask you to marry him. Now, I know that sounds bizarre. I was 19 years old, doesn't make sense, and yet my brain was telling me a lie. That I bought hook, line, and sinker. And so I accepted his proposal and you know, a year later we got married. My body was trying to tell me something and I overruled it because of what my brain was telling me. And I think this happens to us more frequently than we know because we've been conditioned, especially women, have been conditioned not to pay attention to our body, to, be people pleasers, do what we're told, do what culture tells us is the right response, and we suffer for it. and so now. When I get those hits of gut instinct, I know to pay attention to it. And that's one of the reasons why I knew that life coaching was what I really, truly wanted to do. Because I could tell in my body, you know, that was my intuition, was saying, this is the direction that you need to go in, this is what you're supposed to do. You know, this is your purpose. And so I, you know, I've, I made that decision and I really haven't looked back. You know, has it been easy? Hell no. But I'm more, and more purposeful in listening to my body and when I'm working with my clients, I take them through an exercise called the Body Compass, where they are able to recall negative emotion and positive emotion, and that lays a foundation, a compass for them to understand what the feeling in their body is when something negative happens, and the feeling in their body when something positive happens. And so when, when it comes time for a decision to be made, then they can ask their body, they can listen to their body because their body is reacting in some, some way. And if they know what the signs are, then they can listen to what their body says and base their decisions off of that, rather than listen to their brain.

That you know, will lie to us all day long. our brain tells us that we're too tall, too thin, too short, too fat, too stupid, too, you know, whatever. Or, this is beneath you. you don't know what you're doing, blah, blah, blah. our brains tell us things that they think our brain thinks is is going to save us from being hurt. And so they, our brain is in survival mode, but our body knows the truth and it's amazing if we really can listen to that and know

Heather Pridemore: There's almost this interesting parallel, between the use of the horse, right, as a external barometer of, you know, truth telling and transparency. And then there is this internal barometer that you're talking about with this, this body wisdom, and, I find that these things are always easier seen in hindsight, but I'm curious, Nancy, where did these things start sort of making sense to you in your own journey?

Nancy J McKay: Like you say, I think things make a lot more sense in hindsight. so I think for me it was a matter of recalling and remembering how I didn't listen to my body in the past and look where it got me, and now I'm faced with another big decision. And so it's like when I got sober, I had been lying to myself for many years before I stopped drinking, that I, I didn't have a problem. My, you know, I was lying to myself and I know deep down inside I knew I had a problem and I knew that something needed to be done, but I didn't want to do what needed to be done, but that doesn't take away the, the, knowledge that I needed to quit drinking.

I just didn't wanna face it. so that's probably the first thing. You know, I remember how it felt to know deep inside that that's what I needed to do. And not having the courage to do it, until I I, until I almost killed myself. And then, you know, the gig was up. It was like, okay, now you, don't have a choice. that was the, probably the most pivotal thing That, awareness. So like when I was telling you, you know, your brain will lie to you all day long. just before I tried to kill myself, my brain was telling me that everyone would be better off without me, and I believed it, and so, you know, then I was taking steps to, to listen to my brain and, and, and almost ended very badly. In any way that we can increase our awareness of our intuition. What we know deep inside our, our inner wisdom. Anything that we can do to increase our awareness of that will serve us well. 

Heather Pridemore: I do wanna thank you for sharing that, and sort of trusting me and, you know, the potential audience listening that, with that,

Nancy J McKay: absolutely. 

Heather Pridemore: know, information.

Heather Pridemore: I hear you talking a lot about, um. Reflection. I mean, really, you know, we're, we're talking about a lot of reflection and, and to be honest with you, I kind of hate the word because it's one of those words that you hear all the time.

Everyone's like, you gotta reflect. I say it all the time too. Gotta reflect. You gotta reflect. And the reason we talk about reflection all the time is because, as we just discussed, hindsight's 20/20 and it's not the first time on this podcast that this topic has come up. It's so much easier to understand our journey, make connections, but you have to be willing to take.

A step back and look backwards before you move forward. And so outside of the horses and, you know, having some pretty reflective moments in your life, do you have a regular practice, a regular strategy for checking in with yourself for understanding you know, what your, your guts are trying to tell you?

Nancy J McKay: I would love to be able to say that I have a practice that I do every day without fail. and that I, am the, the queen of self-awareness, but I'm not. I go in, in, phases of, Having like a morning routine where I sit down and I read, and then I do some journaling and I might pull a. Oracle card and journal about that. But as I, you know, like I say, I'm certainly not perfect. And so it kind of comes and fits in phases and, but what I do try to do is check in with myself, like you said. how am I feeling? Why am I feeling it? And I think that's one of the biggest questions is. Why do you think you're feeling that particular way and what's it trying to tell you? What's it trying to teach you? Fear is at the base of a lot of stuff and when you ask yourself what it is that you're afraid of you know, are you afraid of something that's coming or something that has happened? it helps you, you know, kind of get a handle on, well, first of all, if you're living in the past or living in the future. And, you know, and then if you're doing that, then you're ruining today. So, trying to be present in the present moment and not,not living too much in the past is, you know, yes, reflection is lovely, but the past has passed. 

Heather Pridemore: I hear you saying that reflection's important, but not to spend too much time dwelling on the past. And then I also hear you saying how important it is to maintain yourself in the present.

Now, one of the things, when I talk about this podcast, I talk about the fact that this show is really about the intersection of our personal and our professional lives, and we've talked about that in a lot of different ways. But if you were gonna sum up what that intersection is for you, Nancy, what would you say is the, like, the intersection of your personal and your professional lives? As it culminates to the story that we've discussed today?

Nancy J McKay: For me, the intersection is to thine own self be true if you can do work that you love. Then, you're ahead the game. if you can do work that you love, that you know, provides a good living, then you're well ahead of the game. But, to be stuck in a job that you're unhappy in because you think that's the way it's supposed to be, and that's as good as it's gonna get. then I think that's a shame. and that's where I was, and I, I didn't want to, follow the status quo. I just, you know, and, and so my personal life now kind of is my professional life. You know, when you're an entrepreneur and you, and you have your own business, it's kinda, it can be difficult to see the, you know, the lines blur a little bit. because I feel like this is who I am I'm finally realizing this is who I am instead of this is who I am at home and this is who I am at work. Now. It's all the same for me. When I almost killed myself, I, you know, the, the chapter in the, in the first book I wrote was The Intersection of Desperation and Grace. And for me, that, that's the other inter intersection is, before I was desperate and then I was given this grace to,to do what I know to be my truth. And so that still is my intersection, I guess, for personal and professional and life in general. You know, I was lucky enough to survive everything and I'm not gonna waste it doing work that doesn't feed my soul.

Heather Pridemore: One of the things I think I hear you saying, Nancy, is that you needed your work to be more in alignment with your values, 

and it sounds like in what you've shared. this episode that you really have found that, you know, you've, you're really taking steps to make sure that all the choices that you're making are truly in alignment with your values.

Nancy J McKay: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Because I, you know, I don't know about you, but I get a, a kind of a pit in my stomach if I'm doing something that goes against my values. It's just that kind of sinking feeling that you get when you're doing something that doesn't align. And, and so I pay attention to that and and that's why I don't do the work I used to do.

Heather Pridemore: Mm-Hmm. Yeah, I think the part I relate with, when you were talking about intuition a bit, Nancy, I think about. Where I was just a little over a year ago, and, I think I had gotten into this space. Well, I don't know if it was a head space or a, you know, just a, burnout space candidly, but I had really desensitized in the area of intuition and I had stopped listening to my gut, you know?

And I think it was as I was coming out the other side of that experience and was really kind of reconnecting all of the pieces that I was able to start really thinking about my values and what it would take to be in alignment with the things that I, valued the most, and, It does make a big difference and it doesn't necessarily make work less hard or, the challenges that people deal with day-to-day, whether you work a corporate job or you're an entrepreneur, like all the same struggles will always be there, but I do think it's much easier, at least for me, to decide what is in and out of scope for me based just solely on my values. Because if I make the decision to walk away from something, because it wasn't in alignment with my values, I'm not thinking about it still three days later because the decision. Was clear, you know, it was something that was easy, maybe not easy to make.

I, I don't wanna say it was an easy decision, but maybe it was, it was a, a less lingering sense of doubt because I chose in alignment with my own values. And so I relate a lot with, the premise of what you're saying in those areas.

Nancy J McKay: Knowing what your values are and being, I'm not sure if committed to them is the right word, but you know, really having the belief in those, in those values, makes it easy. You know, you when I may have to make a decision about something, I kind of, I put it through the litmus test, is any part of this, does any of it go against my values? And, and if it does, then it's pretty easy to base my decisions based on that, you know? 

Heather Pridemore: Well, we are approaching the end of the show. Nancy and I, I like to close out every episode by asking if someone was like, this was too long, didn't listen, what is the one thing you'd want them to take away from this conversation?

Nancy J McKay: We're all recovering from something and horses are magic.

Heather Pridemore: Love it. Horses are magic and we all are recovering from something. So on that note, thank you so much, Nancy, for joining us. such a great episode. You, you've shared some deeply personal things, and so I just want you to know, you know, how, how grateful I am in the sense that I wanna be the most respectful to the experience that you've had.

Nancy J McKay: Absolutely, and thank you so much. It was really a pleasure to be here.

Heather Pridemore: Nancy shared so much vulnerability in this episode and she ended with "we're all recovering from something" and during her conversation with us I was really struck by her recovery both from addiction as well as from cancer and then her journey coming through the other side of a suicide attempt.

Candidly, I didn't know going into the conversation how much Nancy was going to share with us and so it meant a lot that she trusted us on this journey.

 The other thing that really stood out to me about this episode was these barometers of whether or not we're being truthful with ourselves. So with the Equus coaching, she's using the horse as a method of external validation that we're being true to our beliefs, to our feelings.

And then on the internal barometer. It's the intuition or the body wisdom that she talked about. And I thought that that was a really interesting message, especially when she mentioned to us that the past is in the past, reflecting is important, but don't spend too much time dwelling in the past.

You have to be present and focus on today. And then the final message that I took from this episode was really about the transition from a traditional corporate job to entrepreneurship. And so I know she mentioned that you should be doing work that brings you fulfillment and purpose. I think that's important.

But what I want to call out here is the importance of community. And so in a corporate environment, a certain amount of that community, it's built in. But when you make the choice to be an entrepreneur, especially a solopreneur, That community is no longer built in and you have to find it for yourself.

And I think there's something really powerful in the process of finding and building your own community. It is a form of personal and professional development and one that I think we all could learn a little something from.